Gap between starting recovery and starting catch

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tivmeistergeneral
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Gap between starting recovery and starting catch

Postby tivmeistergeneral » Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:33 am

I've been thinking about the "speeding up the catch" business in order to speed up my stroke rate as I can hold 16-17spl in a 25m pool but my fastest 400m recently was 6:18 (down from 7:00 about 3 months ago, so not too bad). Any drills you can recommend from the SSDVD? I think I need to reduce the gap between when I reach the end of my stroke and start recovering and when I start applying rear-ward forced with the front hand, as there is a definite "pause" moment until my recovering arm is almost perpendicular to the water and I start applying force at the front.
PBs so far:
100m: 1:27 [17/7/09], 400m: 6:18 [7/7/09], 1500m: 26:33 [13/7/09]

"By September" Targets:
400m: 6:14, 1500m: 25:00

tivmeistergeneral
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Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:29 am

Re: Gap between starting recovery and starting catch

Postby tivmeistergeneral » Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:33 am

Email reply from Paul:
Think you'll find this very useful: http://www.swimsmooth.com/catch_adv.html

From the DVD, focus on the Unco and Scull # 1 drills.

Keep us posted!
PBs so far:
100m: 1:27 [17/7/09], 400m: 6:18 [7/7/09], 1500m: 26:33 [13/7/09]

"By September" Targets:
400m: 6:14, 1500m: 25:00

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Paul Newsome
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Re: Gap between starting recovery and starting catch

Postby Paul Newsome » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:42 am

Thanks TMG...please report back once you've had a chance to work through these ideas and let us know how you've gone with them!
2013 Manhattan Island Marathon Swim Champion. Don't forget to check out our valuable Know How section on the main site at http://www.swimsmooth.com/knowhow.html

tivmeistergeneral
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:29 am

Re: Gap between starting recovery and starting catch

Postby tivmeistergeneral » Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:41 pm

I did the 8-week advanced program, session 3 today and after the 100m kick time trial I thought I'd have a go at a 100m FS time trial.

The main "catch" takeaway from the drills was, during Popov w/ fins, I relaxed just before the full stroke and allowed the water to push my hand and arm into the "vertical forearm" position to start the catch as my other arm started on the recovery.
The other takeaway from this session was having to calm my kick down a bit - my feet were starting to hurt wearing fins for such a long period of time - and during the 4 x 100 "PFQ" driving the hip forward in time with the kick and arms. It dawned on me that it really doesn't need a big kick to get a lot of drive, but the timing has to be there.

Well, despite feeling pretty knackered after the session I managed to knock 6 seconds off my 100m PB and went under 1:30 (1:27) for the first time! I have a feeling this is going to be one of those "two steps forward, one step back" scenarios but right now I'm on top of the world :D Can't wait to get back in the pool on Monday.
PBs so far:
100m: 1:27 [17/7/09], 400m: 6:18 [7/7/09], 1500m: 26:33 [13/7/09]

"By September" Targets:
400m: 6:14, 1500m: 25:00

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Paul Newsome
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Re: Gap between starting recovery and starting catch

Postby Paul Newsome » Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:59 pm

Top result TMG - well done mate!
2013 Manhattan Island Marathon Swim Champion. Don't forget to check out our valuable Know How section on the main site at http://www.swimsmooth.com/knowhow.html

keeperofthepriest
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Re: Gap between starting recovery and starting catch

Postby keeperofthepriest » Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:47 pm

Am I right in thinking that you start the catch at exactly the same time as you start the recovery?
Also do you start the catch by cocking the wrist first and then moving your forearm over your wrist (keeping your elbow high) until your forearm and hand are pointing directly down at the bottom of the pool?
Thanks.
Rob.

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Paul Newsome
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Re: Gap between starting recovery and starting catch

Postby Paul Newsome » Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:27 pm

Hi Rob, yes, you are correct on the 2nd point...the subtle "tilting" of the wrist ensures that you don't put the brakes on by dropping the wrist and elbow (which many people do). This then encourages you to bend the elbow, keeping the elbow high and ensuring that you are pressing back on the water rather than down.

On the first point though (catch and recovery coordination) this depends on a few factors, namely the timing of your stroke. Some swimmers adopt a very efficient "Front Quadrant" (FQ) freestyle stroke, always maintaining one hand in front of your head, and as such the timing would be different to what you describe. Other swimmers apply a more "rotary" style stroke which would fit you description a little more accurately where each hand is at opposite ends of the "clock face", i.e. 6 and 12 o'clock. The rotary stroke lends itself to a much higher stroke rate and is often applied by top open water swimmers. It takes timing and practice to master, but when done well is very effective indeed. For the majority of swimmers, the FQ stroke is the way to go initially, but there are always exceptions to this case.

Over the coming months on the Feel For the Water Blog (www.feelforthewater.com) and also with some of our new products that we are planning, we will show you just how to develop this aspect of your stroke specific to you own level of experience, physical make-up and event selection. I hope you will find this discussion both interesting and helpful for your own swimming.

Stay tuned!

Cheers

Paul
2013 Manhattan Island Marathon Swim Champion. Don't forget to check out our valuable Know How section on the main site at http://www.swimsmooth.com/knowhow.html

matt_1967
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Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:10 am

Re: Gap between starting recovery and starting catch

Postby matt_1967 » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:25 am

I'm now on session 4, intermediate and loving the process and sessions that the SS programme gives me.

Technically I should be on the advance sessions as I can swim as a fair pace, however i wanted to break down my stroke, back to basics and improve that way. When I first started training again, I made the most common of errors, I thought back to the time when I was swimming competitively (at Schools and college ) and tried to attack each length in the same way. In those days I used to swim for 4 hours a day so had a pretty good level of fitness.

Now by concentrating on my stroke, I have not only got faster:- I did a 400m OW swim yesterday in 4.56, but I'm less tired...I know thats what the programme is all about but when it happens...WOW!!! I've got an aquathlon on sunday, should be a good test of what I'm saying??? :o

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Paul Newsome
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Re: Gap between starting recovery and starting catch

Postby Paul Newsome » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:25 pm

matt_1967 wrote:Now by concentrating on my stroke, I have not only got faster:- I did a 400m OW swim yesterday in 4.56, but I'm less tired...I know thats what the programme is all about but when it happens...WOW!!! I've got an aquathlon on sunday, should be a good test of what I'm saying??? :o


Thats some really good work there Matt - nice job. Let us know how you go at the weekend!

Cheers

Paul
2013 Manhattan Island Marathon Swim Champion. Don't forget to check out our valuable Know How section on the main site at http://www.swimsmooth.com/knowhow.html

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SolarEnergy
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Re: Gap between starting recovery and starting catch

Postby SolarEnergy » Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:25 pm

keeperofthepriest wrote:Am I right in thinking that you start the catch at exactly the same time as you start the recovery?
You'd certainly be not very far from the truth in stating that catch could begin near this moment timing-wise.

Now the big question, and that is a big part of what I define as "engineering the stroke" is how progressive this catch will be. The answer to this question depends on several factors. The biggest one to me, is health. Late catching increases pressure made on the shoulder articulation (and to some extent, elbow articulation as well).

For me, none of these articulation can stand very late catching. I prefer to start catching earlier, let (like you so smartly describe earlier) my fingers drop first, then the hand then the upper arm etc... Actual catch is therefore made little deeper. And only then do I apply pressure to move forward.

In the past, several swimming schools of thoughts have been focusing on increasing distance per stroke wwwwway too much to my personal taste. This has resulted into several swimmers late catching. What I mean by late catching is simply the fact of waiting and waiting and waiting before actually Starting taking a catch. As a result of this, huge pressure is put on the articulation.

SwimSmooth (probably due to great experience in open water marathon swimming) advocates rather a fair balance between distance per stroke, and stroke rate. Finally!!!!!!
SolarEnergy
Charles G. Couturier, Canadian Swimming / Triathlon Coach


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