Advice on breathing please

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Don Wright
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Re: Advice on breathing please

Postby Don Wright » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:06 am

Hi folks!

Harrybeardie wrote:Hi don hope your goggles arnt ruined and that your next swim is uplifting...


Sadly my old precription goggles have definitely "had their day "(5 years of use, so I can't really complain). Had an eye test yesterday and so now have got a new prescription, also, Woody found out the firm/website that made my old ones (after I had goofed by getting off-track!). My optician's declined to order the new goggles for me this time, saying they didn't think they could get them through their ordering system now, so will have to approach the firm myself. Am making do with some ghastly Speedo ones, which don't leak but are basically 2 eye cups with a silly thin bit of adjustable plastic for the nose bridge, they fog-up like crazy (despite my usual remedy of rubbing a bit of saliva inside them) . Have ordered some plain anti-fog AquaSphere "one-piece" ones from SwimShop (similar style to my old goggles), that I will probably be more comfortable using, even though I will still be rather disorientated till I get the next prescription ones. I have read that if one has much astigmatism, then buying "off-the-shelf" simple weaker prescription ones, are likely to be a bit "blurry" and give headaches.

At present other swimmers do not appear in my field of view (can't even see the end wall when I start off from each end!), until they "materialize" as just shadowy shapeless forms when they are about 1 or 2 yards away - so that makes lane swimming a bit awkward. Can't even see my just entered arm/hand descending to the catch properly at present - so am basically swimming on "muscle memory" of what I used to do! Any hope of trying out different things re this breathing business, has been put "on hold" till I get the goggle business sorted out.

Yes I also initially thought Brenton was a spammer ('cos initially he appended to a lot of current topics), until I looked at the website he advertised - then realized he knows what he's talking about from experience!

Best wishes! Bye / Don
Last edited by Don Wright on Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

woody
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Re: Advice on breathing please

Postby woody » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:12 am

Hi Harry/Brenton
Solar has said in a pm that competitors are welcome here.

Brenton I suppose as swimmers looking for help on here we are sensitive to protecting swimsmooths interests. Looking at the first few posts it seemed that you were just giving the barest of replies (tho straight to the heart of the matter) in order to publicise your web address .And especially as you have so far ommited to post on the Hello thread to introduce yourself as if to slip under the radar.

However in Brentons defence if we click on his name it clearly says who he is and he has also publicised swim smooth in the podcast section of his own website .

So a belated welcome to the forum from one who needs as much advice as possible

Regards
Woody
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smootharnie
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Re: Advice on breathing please

Postby smootharnie » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:21 am

Some day even Terry will show up here to give his helpfull advise.. :lol:
Good to have people giving sensible input, but the effortlessswimming subscript is a bit on the edge..
GO to the new swimforum, called ....... THE SWIM FORUM......swim.palstani.com

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Re: Advice on breathing please

Postby SolarEnergy » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:17 am

Harrybeardie wrote:Hi don, woody et al. I am sure you have both noticed this guy brentonford is obviously a spammer, I don't know how to report him, will you do it or tell me how to. Thanks.


I truly beg to disagree here, though you may want to report this to Adam directly. I've known Brandon from his works, he's a serious coach who's even delicate enough not to even include links to his swim business.

As I was explaining Woody in private, Swim Smooth is a mature, well established, clearly, very clearly ahead installed in the lead pack company. I see Brandon's presence here as a sign of curiosity toward the sort of exchanges that are going on, possibly to learn not only to teach.

His values (I've crawled through his website, well before he shows up here) are pretty much in line with that of SwimSmooth anyway. Pretty pragmatic, been there done that, a guy that can swim, not only talk.

Personally I found that some of his ideas lack a bit of depth in some regards, but he's clearly here because of his passion for swimming more than to sell all sort of crap just like spammers usually do.

As far as I'm concerned, discussion Forums should be demilitarized zones.
SolarEnergy
Charles G. Couturier, Canadian Swimming / Triathlon Coach

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SolarEnergy
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Re: Advice on breathing please

Postby SolarEnergy » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:30 am

smootharnie wrote:Some day even Terry will show up here to give his helpfull advise.. :lol:
Good to have people giving sensible input, but the effortlessswimming subscript is a bit on the edge..
He reads, but Terry for some obvious reasons truly dislikes some of the values promoted by SwimSmooth. This is what's so cool in the case of TI vs SwimSmooth. They really sit in two different continents in some regards.

Don't try to convince Terry Laughlin that it's sometimes good to spend several sessions without necessarily thinking about each stroke. And obviously, asking your typical swinger to be mindful 100% of the time goes against what SwimSmooth teaches. The other areas where they clearly disagree is on the focus made on either the stroke rate, or the dps. Simple. SwimSmooth believes one should swim at the best possible rate given the profile, given the conditions, and try to improve further by improving distance per stroke. Terry thinks one should swim at his optimal (not maximal) distance per stroke, perserve this in most contexts, for all, and then improve the rate to improve further or to adapt to conditions. Somewhere down the road, there's a possibility that a swimmer achieves the exact same rate dps combination having learned through TI or SS, but the process to get there will be significantly different, which makes, to some extent, Swim Smooth's forums a boring place for Terry to be, and for Total Immersion's forums a boring place for Paul Newsome Adam Young to be.

The reason for me here to explain all this is that that's the main reason why these guys don't chat over swimming. All these folks are fantastic persons, one of their own kind but top persons to be with, to get to know better. And I'm absolutely convinced that they could have a ball together in an Irish Pub somewhere, or on a beach even sharing a swim. These businesses run very well, they don't bother the competition that much I believe at the mo. They have such a distinct product to offer, that not bothering about the other is definitely a sound choice.

Now from the swimmer perspective, I'd say that there's nothing wrong in experiencing stuff from other vendors so to speak, just like Cot, yourself I believe, and other have done. We're there for YOU, the swimmers, and if anything can help you feeling things, developing better sensations, they hey! One way or the other it's mission accomplished.

I had been trying for 18 months now to try and improve back of the leg extension whilst running with an athlete of mine. He would be too stiff and the leg would not move freely backward after the foot leaves the ground. Some day Adbel from Morroco, an other athlete of mine gives us a clinics, and solves that case in 5min, we were all glad, without any exception :lol:

Sorry for being as open minded as that, but well well before having a practice of mine, I used to hang on forums a lot and I really prefer this Forum experience that has gotten me to envision a come back some day. So fun to just chat and forget about business. I'm not here for business myself trust me. I should work more on my business in fact :lol:
SolarEnergy
Charles G. Couturier, Canadian Swimming / Triathlon Coach

Harrybeardie
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Re: Advice on breathing please

Postby Harrybeardie » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:21 pm

Solar, I too welcome ideas from all people, when your a struggling swimmer like myself then all advice is welcome. I am also new to the forum which I think by the way is great. The reason I asked about brentford was because he seemed to display characteristics of a spammer, advertising his web site, giving only short answers to questions in a short span of time on the back of others questions. I don't know how to report spammers and therefore as a good, I hope, forum member bought it to everyone's attention in case action was needed. It may be helpful if there were some forum guidelines that would help denote spammers, admittedly most are obvious not giving advice on swimming like brentford does, but he did display some signs of spam. I have apologised to him if he is genuine about the forum then its great he is inputting. For the record I have never thought you were touting for business, quite the opposite you are very generous with your time offering great advice to whoever asks for it. Cheers Harry.

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Re: Advice on breathing please

Postby woody » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:07 pm

Hi harry just a quick reply yo report spam when you are signed in there is a little upside down triangle with a! In it at the top right of every post. Click this and it lets you report as spam if somebody else has already reported it tells you too.
Regards
Woody
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The best time to learn to swim was a long time ago the second best time is today

Harrybeardie
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Re: Advice on breathing please

Postby Harrybeardie » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:25 pm

Thanks woody that's great Harry

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Re: Advice on breathing please

Postby woody » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:22 pm

Yesterday I managed to swim so much more relaxed to the point i was saying tick tock tick tock as Each arm speared in and breathing easy.I am sure my work on the catch has sorted this but being able to relax and say tick tock made me realise time for this temp thingy so just ordered one.
Woody
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Re: Advice on breathing please

Postby woody » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:31 pm

Everything is won or lost inside your own head.

The best time to learn to swim was a long time ago the second best time is today

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Re: Advice on breathing please

Postby woody » Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:58 pm

Not been here for some time and was just looking at how I used to struggle with breathing. Just this last weekend I did a long swim and never even thought about it.
To anyone struggling today just keep at it you will get there.
Woody
Everything is won or lost inside your own head.

The best time to learn to swim was a long time ago the second best time is today

The Dodo
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Re: Advice on breathing please

Postby The Dodo » Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:54 am

Hi Woody!

Think we both had breathing problems at one time - you have succeeded - full marks for perseverance and battling through. I am still struggling - it's difficult for me to do 3x20m of FS without getting that desperate feeling I can't go on much further. Think have eventually pin-pointed where the problem is! Reckon it's mainly due to weakness in the arms (over 80 now, and been on statins - causing muscle wastage - for over 6 years now - although it happens with advancing age also). I just can't abide any FS variation that includes even a suspicion of a glide (having once been a horrendous "OG-er"!), so my arms are on the go all the time, but I make the down-sweep to a catch a real drop of my hand/forearm down to an EVF catch. The rest of my arm stroke is definitely quicker than the down-sweep to the catch. The "disposition of the arms" is such that as the hand of my recovering arm comes level with the head, my stroking arm is already into the pull phase. This gives great movement, and is OK for me (for a while!) as I prefer to do a long gentle exhalation, with an inhalation on every 4th arm stroke when am trying to relax and go as far as I can. The tiredness in the arms - (my arms aren't quite "match stick thin" now - but whatever happened to my biceps/triceps etc, ;) ) - that makes itself evident after a while, does I am now sure, impinge on the breathing - via the energy/ breathing physiological cycle. During the first couple of lengths, all seems to go well - but towards the end of the third length am getting - um what shall we say, a bit "fraught" perhaps. :roll:

I did discover using the above style, that while keeping the leg action minimal - (doing my "hip flick downward"s to send a wave down the relaxed leg on that side - as each arm enters the water instead of doing any explicit flutter kick - so that my stiff ankled feet don't protrude so much into the water flow!) - and relying on arm action for movement forwards, that I could swim flatter with very little body roll, only just enough to safely inhale in the trough as I turn the neck. That reminds me of the TI style of inhalation - think they make a bit of a "song and dance" about minimal body roll for inhalation - perhaps they've got a good point there! It seemed to me doing this style of FS (I still practice about 1/2 dozen different FS styles at each session) that rolling the shoulders clock/anti-clock-wise, with the downward shoulder protruding into the water flow, as the stroking arm does it's work, was in fact a drag-inducing factor. Reducing the body roll seemed to facilitate faster movement forwards - but I suppose one can put more "oomph" into the action by getting the shoulder more involved in the pull - so there are "pros and cons"!

Seems that my legs are in a worse state than my thin arms (think I may have to give serious thought to getting a mobility scooter - next year perhaps!) I used to joke about participating in a Zimmer Frame race for "oldies" - it ain't such a comical thought now!

(The fairly recent change of "username" occurred when I got into a mess trying to change my password. I thought "Darn it! - So I'll just re-register with a different "username!". Am not quite "dodo style" extinct yet, but clearly "on the way out".)

Glad you are getting on so well!

Best wishes / Don

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Re: Advice on breathing please

Postby woody » Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:21 am

Hi Don
I struggled for ages getting past 75m I just kept running out of air looking back it was because I put too much effort in to throwing my arms forward and then pulling them back hard.
My breakthrough came when a coach made me think about my arm was resting in a thick gel and to move it through the gel slowly . They also said I had to rest my head on the gel.
Two drills got me sorted the most effective was do a length with just one finger pointing like in a gun shape but not clenching the fist hard. While doing this length think about the flow of water past the extended finger.Do another length but add in your little finger same focus again relaxed rest of hand. Then third length with full hand. You may wish to do half lengths or / and add a pull buoy. Took me a few goes but the feedback to make me use less oxygen was amazing.
The other drill was sculling with a pull buoy .
Somehow I got a feel for the water and moved with less effort . I was also rotating from shoulders first but once I could keep going I was able to start work on initiating my roll from my hip with hip moving first then the pull. It took ages to stop myself using the pull to initiate the rotation . When I get tired like at 3 miles into Coniston I started to pull first and had to make myself think hip first pull second so it's still work in progress.
Cheers Woody
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The best time to learn to swim was a long time ago the second best time is today

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Re: Advice on breathing please

Postby The Dodo » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:46 am

woody wrote:Hi Don
I struggled for ages getting past 75m I just kept running out of air looking back it was because I put too much effort in to throwing my arms forward and then pulling them back hard.
My breakthrough came when a coach made me think about my arm was resting in a thick gel and to move it through the gel slowly . They also said I had to rest my head on the gel.
Two drills got me sorted the most effective was do a length with just one finger pointing like in a gun shape but not clenching the fist hard. While doing this length think about the flow of water past the extended finger.Do another length but add in your little finger same focus again relaxed rest of hand. Then third length with full hand. You may wish to do half lengths or / and add a pull buoy. Took me a few goes but the feedback to make me use less oxygen was amazing.
The other drill was sculling with a pull buoy .
Somehow I got a feel for the water and moved with less effort . I was also rotating from shoulders first but once I could keep going I was able to start work on initiating my roll from my hip with hip moving first then the pull. It took ages to stop myself using the pull to initiate the rotation . When I get tired like at 3 miles into Coniston I started to pull first and had to make myself think hip first pull second so it's still work in progress.
Cheers Woody


Thanks for the tips Woody! They say it's gonna be a real scorcher here today/tomorrow, and my wife's away for today Tue/tomorrow Wed - usually I swim on Mons,Weds and Sats - so I'll really take things gently tomorrow (i.e skip the high energy cost of fly stuff) in case I overdo things - she won't want a call saying I've been carted off to hospital because of ticker problems!

I don't need to use a PB 'cos I wear buoyancy shorts for all my swimming now - i.e. I can kick or just leave the legs static. Actually I've found that quick hip flick downwards (on same side as the entering arm) as each arm enters the water and extends, sending a wave down the leg, more helpful than any explicit 2-beat kicking. That's probably due to the fact that my inflexible feet always point more to the bottom than backwards - so just letting a wave run down the leg produces a shallow wiggle without the foot protruding deeply into the water flow beneath the body and causing drag. As for the arms, when deliberately going slow I really do let the hand/forearm drop under their own weight down to my favourite EVF catch style - followed by a "languid" paddle through! I could allow myself a bit of "degradation" :roll: by using more of a "catch-up" arm action I suppose.

What I have found most helpful so far while swimming a deliberate slow FS, is to keep recalling what it feels like energy-consumption-wise when swimming the English back stroke (which I can manage almost "forever" if needed!). When swimming that, have noticed that I do a long exhalation as I do the double semi-circular arm-sweep (from the glide with outstretched arms beyond the head, to bring the arms around close to the hips), then I do a quick'ish suck-in of fresh air as I part the thighs and drop the lower legs, prior to doing the lower legs swirl out/around as the arms are flung up/overhead, and back into stream-lined glide position.

That's why I tried doing a long steady relaxed exhalation with a short inhalation on every 4th arm stroke in my relaxed FS efforts - and minimal body roll making sure to inhale without raising the head! That has worked fine for me, till I get to the last few metres of my 3x20m effort. Wonder if there is some psychological barrier there - No! - I've just remembered it was tiredness in my arms warning me to have a rest - so maybe that dreaded "catch-up" arm action style would help me get further! In fact it was that awful style which I used a couple of years ago, to break my 100m FS limit barrier in a 25m pool - something have never been able to replicate since that momentous occasion! Big sigh! - What a stubborn chap I am! ;)

Bye / Don

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Re: Advice on breathing please

Postby woody » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:49 am

"Actually I've found that quick hip flick downwards (on same side as the entering arm) as each arm enters the water and extends, sending a wave down the leg, more helpful than any explicit 2-beat kicking. "
You may have discovered something towards Adam walker ocean walkers stroke his is a step round on the same side as you describe. The step round takes the hip and rest of the body with it so starting the rotation. Fractionally after this the other arm commences the pull and the opposite foot kicks down to aid rotation.
The step is hardly noticed it is just to start the top hip moving down. But the pull and kick timing happening together on the same side moves you through the water much easier.
Woody
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Re: Advice on breathing please

Postby The Dodo » Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:18 pm

woody wrote:...You may have discovered something towards Adam walker ocean walkers stroke his is a step round on the same side as you describe. The step round takes the hip and rest of the body with it so starting the rotation. Fractionally after this the other arm commences the pull and the opposite foot kicks down to aid rotation.
The step is hardly noticed it is just to start the top hip moving down. But the pull and kick timing happening together on the same side moves you through the water much easier...


Thanks for that info Woody! I hadn't heard of the chap before (I don't move in the right circles evidently!) I read/scanned the guff available re him and his FS stroke on Google/Youtube - so am a little bit wiser now. Was appalled at the very TI'ish style of arm's water entry (yes it was a slide-in near the head before extension - but so deep in my estimation - well that has a "plus point", in that it's not much further down to a catch!) and the almost complete "catch-up" of the rear arm with the waiting lead arm! :roll: Would have liked to see his arm action UW but couldn't find a clip of that - to see his catch and the rest of his UW stroke path.

However, on reading about his ideas - I think he has some very good points. With my quick hip flick down with the leg on the same side as the entering arm, I am correctly rolling towards the entering arm, according to Maglischo's mantra ("Roll towards the arm going down and roll away from the arm coming up!" ). That "flicking down" action of the hip is IMO quite sufficient to complete the body's required rotation - without any further effort until the entry of the arm on the other side and the hip flick downwards on that same side, tilts the body in the opposite direction ready for the up-sweep of the old stroking arm and possible inhalation. Yes, I believe there is a lot of core action involved in the quick hip flick down - and it needs to be a quick or smart action so as to send the "wave" or undulation down the relaxed leg on that side. I am not clear what the other leg does meanwhile during that leg wave action - I would probably find it rather an untidy weak action if it could be caught on camera! I got the idea from thinking about how a wave travels down a loose rope lying on the floor, held at one end and given a quick shake. Have always believed that a relaxed "undulating" leg ends it's action with a little flick down of the foot, and that provides a little kick downbeat! The wave action of the thigh moving down and then up during the hip flick, with lower leg/foot following slightly out of phase, do aid motion forwards. (Mmm! seems to me, I ought to get off my "hobby-horse" here! Sorry to bore you with my little thoughts!

Apart from the usual arthritic pains in most joints, I recently had a bit of trouble with my right shoulder - which the doc says is a rotator cuff injury - so like Adam Walker, am looking to swim FS without making matters worse. I don't get much trouble with my FS arm action, but when I attempt a bit of fly (rarely more than 10m-15m at a time, followed by a necessary rest before continuing :lol: ) - I've found it easier if I remember to keep my upper arms fairly close to ty ribs during the fly pull.

Afterthought - I think Adam makes a point in his video clips of emphasizing that most of the propulsive action comes while swimming on the side - as "smootharnie" said on another thread recently, this is a strong point that TI used to make, quoting the example of an old tea-clipper with a sharp/deep'ish keel able to quickly sail heeled over at a dramatic angle! Think there is a lot of truth to that idea, and I use it in a mini-set for "loping". (Kicking like crazy while almost on the side and with one elbow pointing to the ceiling while the lead arm is outstretched for a bit - then a quick stroke to get a gasp of air before resuming the initial arm arrangement and almost on the side kicking, lead arm outstretched and the other arm resting by the hip, elbow elbow up above the surface, till the need for another quick stroke/inhalation etc. That action certainly seems to give quite good movement forwards.)
Last edited by The Dodo on Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Advice on breathing please

Postby woody » Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:17 pm

Hi Don
The other leg just aids rotation which you say you don't need as the hip flick takes you round.
Before I saw Adam swim in person I thought it was Ti but it is different in a way that only seeing him can show. His mantra to me was hip before pull.
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Re: Advice on breathing please

Postby Mike A » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:44 pm

I've always thought Ocean Walker style sounds very similar to TI on paper - I haven't seen Adam swim in person though. His theory (developed after suffering an injury) is to harness the power of the core and take the load off the arms and shoulders. Since he is the first Briton to swim the world's seven most difficult channel swims (the "Ocean's Seven") I guess we can't dismiss him as readily as we might certain TI poster boys! ;)
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Re: Advice on breathing please

Postby s.sciame » Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:08 pm

woody wrote:Before I saw Adam swim in person I thought it was Ti but it is different in a way that only seeing him can show.


Hi woody, now I'm curious ;) Can you expand on this please?

Thanks,
Salvo
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Re: Advice on breathing please

Postby woody » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:05 pm

It is difficult to explain in words and I may get it wrong but I have had bothTI and Ocean Walker sessions. And a lot of swimsmooth also.I love them all.
Adam goes more on his side with wider arms for stability. The rotation starts from (as the recovering arm is entering) a step round which engages the core and starts the top hip moving before commencing the pull.A kick with the leg on the same side as the pulling arm aids the rotation.
It's really hard to explain the difference between any of the different coaches I have had .There is so much that is the same through a swimmers eyes. All the three above teach rotation driven from the hip and once you get some sort of competence in keeping in balance as the recovering arm is on its travel forward -its just different amounts of rotation, timing and stroke rates / length etc.
Once I could do swim on side , 616, 636 with and without fins and hold my body position the different timings/ rotation/head position are a matter of personal choice.
I'm analytical so an overglider in swimsmooth terms and therefore like a slower stroke rate but I seem to get more power and less neck pain if I put more rotation with the slow rate.
Certainly when I swam in Coniston at 3 miles I was tired and my stroke had both shortened and stroke rate increased only by relaxing ,increasing my rotation and widening my arms was I able to overcome it and complete the swim
In the end it is what works for an individual . If I were younger (I'm 64 in a couple of weeks) and a swinger then a shorter faster with a bit towards shoulder driven would probably have suited me.
woody
Edit this just appeared on facebook so better explanation by Adam himself https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php? ... 1720916213
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