Progress report

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Don Wright
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Re: Progress report

Postby Don Wright » Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:32 am

Adivio wrote:Hello there,

new harvest of videos fresh from the pool :).

https://youtu.be/whQCMiFZWsc
https://youtu.be/4ZvjG5DnSEU
https://youtu.be/0ljMtQoSLXk
https://youtu.be/IxzyXE5cEWs

Don't hold up your comments.

Thanks, Adrian


Hi Adrian! (Hit the right button this time around!!!)

Sorry to be "a bit of a pain", but your UW side-view set me thinking. At 0:19 of the 0:52 clip, your hand is nicely inclined at some 80 degrees below the surface - but that''s the only backward-facing part of your arm that I can see in any of the down-sweeps/catches. Yes I can understand that some (and apparently you as well) can achieve a proper catch by careful orientation of the hand - but are you "missing out" by not getting a backward-facing forearm earlier "into the picture" (vide page 77 of the SS book - middle illustration, with annotation "The elbow bends and the forearm becomes more vertical in the water.")

If you have tried an EVF style catch, you know the difference it can make, by getting not just the hand, but the forearm as well backward-facing (i.e the forearm at least 45 degrees inclined to the surface for an SS style catch! So maybe, a bit more elbow bend at the catch would improve matters to get more of the underside of the arm involved in propulsion!?

Yeah I know some elites exhibit what seems to be a straight arm pull-through - but heaven help their shoulder joints in a few years time!

However, bravo for your progress so far - lucky chap, you make me feel quite envious! :mrgreen:
Last edited by Don Wright on Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:47 am, edited 2 times in total.

smootharnie
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Re: Progress report

Postby smootharnie » Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:43 am

Yeah Don, I was thinking the same, this guy must get pretty strong shoulders form all this straight arm sprinting ;)
Adivio Morozov?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENECc7jPH-w
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:33 pm

If you have tried an EVF style catch, you know the difference it can make, by getting not just the hand, but the forearm as well backward-facing (i.e the forearm at least 45 degrees inclined to the surface for an SS style catch! So maybe, a bit more elbow bend at the catch would improve matters to get more of the underside of the arm involved in propulsion!?


Hi Don, I am well aware of this problem and although it is so easy to bend the arm in thin air, it is so difficult in the water. I just can't do it, it seems.
Luckily, my shoulders don't complain at all :). I used to get some pains when I started swimming but now it is all good.
Morozov it is then :).

However, bravo for your progress so far - lucky chap, you make me feel quite envious! :mrgreen:

Thanks, encouraging to hear that you see progress. I believe compared with previous videos I have posted?

Adivio, what does the clock say so far?

Smootharnie, I don't know and I don't want to know now :). Have been 3 slow weeks during the holiday season, club practice was on hold and was fighting some light flu. I will retest once I get back to my normal level of practice, in 2-3 weeks.

Looks like this is a standard test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D5_fmIbqYk
yiha, can do what the girl is doing without any stress :)


Thanks for the link, I did the test and results are as expected: free leg is well above the table. So Ducky's diagnostic was right.

don't be afraid to tell the person working on you what your goal is so they can be aware the trouble areas. ultimately you want your entire body unlocked, but right now your hip flexors/glutes/hamstrings etc are number 1.


Thanks again Ducky, indeed, I need to communicate this very well to the masseur. I had a session some time ago with him and he knew his stuff.
He worked my legs as I told him that I'm into triathlons and god it was painful. All is really tight it seems.
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smootharnie
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Re: Progress report

Postby smootharnie » Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:21 pm

Well seem then by Ducky, but when looking at your latest underwater footage your butt and legs are not that low.
But thats possibly because of the relative high effort kicking thats going on.
Looks to me you use legs and arms to push water down and added together they keep the body almost level.
A lot balance improvemnt can already be achievd by not pressing so much water dowm at the front.
It all still looks very arm dominant with kicktiming lagging a bit.
Perhaps easiest to simply try to build pressure under the arm gradully from entry and increase towards the end?
Less pressure at the start, more toward the end compared to what you are doing now.
That way you press less water down, the kicktiming becomes a bit better and you dont have to make major changes in your stroke.
And going to high elbow will also be asier if you are used to this force buildup. Starting to pull max force and also getting a high elbow at the same time requires to much strength for an adult starter.

In the meantime you can improve hip flexibility
Same straight arm puller Harry Witshire seems to have more loose and flexible upperlegs relative to torso if I see it right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htKqKeh-zEg
compared to your sideview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ljMtQo ... e=youtu.be
Maybe I am talking crap about the pushing water down. In your left to right lap you are not pushing very hard at the start of the stroke, in the right to left swimming its all a bit more uncontrolled.
I dont like your leg arm connection. Wiltshire is nicely hopping from one side to the other in a natural rhythm, In your case arms and legs are fighting a bit against each other.
Ducky what do you think?
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Don Wright
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Re: Progress report

Postby Don Wright » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:10 am

Adivio wrote:
Don Wright wrote:...If you have tried an EVF style catch, you know the difference it can make, by getting not just the hand, but the forearm as well backward-facing (i.e the forearm at least 45 degrees inclined to the surface for an SS style catch! So maybe, a bit more elbow bend at the catch would improve matters to get more of the underside of the arm involved in propulsion!?...


Hi Don, I am well aware of this problem and although it is so easy to bend the arm in thin air, it is so difficult in the water. I just can't do it, it seems.
Luckily, my shoulders don't complain at all :). I used to get some pains when I started swimming but now it is all good.
Morozov it is then :).


Hi Adrian, am still "agonizing" over the elite style straight arm catch business. I recalled a comment made to me a few years ago by an obviously well-built chap in mid 20s probably, saying wistfully he could no longer swim competitively for his county because he had "wrecked his shoulders"! Had another look at what Sheila Taormina has to say about this style, in her "Swim Speed Strokes" book (with pics and comments on Morozov in her Appendix B). I won't quote it here, but it would make most of us think very carefully about it - unless determined to go only for short distance sprinting. The straight arm style with gradually tilting hand is still moving downwards on a circular arc with centre at the shoulder joint - which to me seems wasteful because ("forgetting momentarily" about any propulsive hand action) it can't aid propulsion until the straight arm is at least 45 degrees below the surface. Whereas, introducing an elbow bend as the upper arm is left up close to the surface, allows for both hand and forearm to get into that backward-facing attitude for best propulsion earlier.

I would suspect that you find the elbow bend for a catch, difficult in water because of the high'sh SPM you use - you haven't really got much time to "almost drop the arm under it's own weight down to the catch" (as am over-fond of saying, as a low'ish SPM-er!). Although there are other ways to ramp up the SPM without hastening the (normally gentle non-propulsive) down-sweep to a catch - such as premature withdrawal for stroking arm exit, or starting the down-sweep to the catch very soon after rear arm exits from the water. On the other hand (devil's advocate style) if we think about the areas involved, of the open palm compared with the more rounded underside of the forearm - the latter is probably only about 1.5 times the are of the open palm, but rounded so water will quickly - i.e. less effective propulsion-wise - slip around that rounded surface - so is it a fuss about relatively little?

Back to Morozov! - Sheila's book has a pic on page 53 showing that Morozov has quite a pronounced bend at his knee as he starts his kick downbeats (something like 135 degrees between back of thigh and lower leg) something I've noticed with Lezak as well. Sheila says (page 51 of above book) "In all strokes, swimmers must bend at the kne to establish a back-facing position with the feet before the propulsive phase of the kick." After looking again at your side view clip, got the feeling that the leg action doesn't match up with your elite-style straight arm action - but perhaps that's an "available energy" problem ;)

Regarding my "green with envy" comment - that applies to any decent FS swimmer who can tot up many laps - without feeling exhausted as I do after a very short while" :roll:

Best wishes for your ongoing process! Learning never stops - just as well 'cos it makes life interesting.

Bye / Don

P.S. Don't know why I referred to an illustration showing the elbow bend side view inside the SS book - when the cover picture of Paul shows a front view of a great elbow bend!
Last edited by Don Wright on Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:20 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Tom65
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Re: Progress report

Postby Tom65 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:32 am

Don Wright wrote:On the other hand (devil's advocate style) if we think about the areas involved, of the open palm compared with the more rounded underside of the forearm - the latter is probably only about 1.5 times the are of the open palm, but rounded so water will quickly - i.e. less effective propulsion-wise - slip around that rounded surface - so is it a fuss about relatively little?


Back side of the forearm is surprisingly flat, should create a reasonable amount of negative pressure.
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Re: Progress report

Postby Don Wright » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:40 am

Tom65 wrote:
Don Wright wrote:On the other hand (devil's advocate style) if we think about the areas involved, of the open palm compared with the more rounded underside of the forearm - the latter is probably only about 1.5 times the are of the open palm, but rounded so water will quickly - i.e. less effective propulsion-wise - slip around that rounded surface - so is it a fuss about relatively little?


Back side of the forearm is surprisingly flat, should create a reasonable amount of negative pressure.



IMO The flat area of the underside of the forearm is nothing like as wide as for the flatter open palm - or is it just me? :lol: "There's none so strange as folk!"
Last edited by Don Wright on Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:51 am, edited 4 times in total.

Adivio
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:42 am

In the meantime you can improve hip flexibility
Same straight arm puller Harry Witshire seems to have more loose and flexible upperlegs relative to torso if I see it right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htKqKeh-zEg
compared to your sideview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ljMtQo ... e=youtu.be
Maybe I am talking crap about the pushing water down. In your left to right lap you are not pushing very hard at the start of the stroke, in the right to left swimming its all a bit more uncontrolled.


Whereas I cannot say where it comes from, there is clear difference between Harry W. and me.
Don't know about pushing the water down at the front, it doesn't feel like that when I'm swimming.

I dont like your leg arm connection. Wiltshire is nicely hopping from one side to the other in a natural rhythm, In your case arms and legs are fighting a bit against each other.

Smootharnie, you might remember I was asking about kick and hand timing couple of months back and it looked like I managed to
get them better in synch but as it didn't bring speed improvements, most of the time I don't pay attention to it. I can switch it ON if
I want meaning that hand will slow down at the front to wait for the kick.

I would suspect that you find the elbow bend for a catch, difficult in water because of the high'sh SPM you use

Don, this is indeed very true. I today did some experiments with more arm bend and I had to drop SPM to be able to do it.

Another experiment I did today from the balance series was to push my upper body deeper after breathing and the feeling and speed
were better. I felt it was easier to maintain speed since I was doing the 200m sets faster than before. Not much, maybe 2s
but anyway, I was at the wall way before the beep :).
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smootharnie
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Re: Progress report

Postby smootharnie » Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:43 pm

I dont like your leg arm connection. Wiltshire is nicely hopping from one side to the other in a natural rhythm, In your case arms and legs are fighting a bit against each other.


Smootharnie, you might remember I was asking about kick and hand timing couple of months back and it looked like I managed to
get them better in synch but as it didn't bring speed improvements, most of the time I don't pay attention to it. I can switch it ON if
I want meaning that hand will slow down at the front to wait for the kick.


did you swim the first lenght from left to right in your "new" style, and the faster lenghth from right to left on your old style?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ljMtQo ... e=youtu.be
So it did feel better, but wasnt faster?
My shoulders get more tired if I dont get the timing right and it feels like crap, but maybe its a personal thing.
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:54 pm

did you swim the first lenght from left to right in your "new" style, and the faster lenghth from right to left on your old style?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ljMtQo ... e=youtu.be
So it did feel better, but wasnt faster?
My shoulders get more tired if I dont get the timing right and it feels like crap, but maybe its a personal thing.


In the video I tried to swim with same style so no conscious change at the middle point.
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smootharnie
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Re: Progress report

Postby smootharnie » Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:46 pm

both lenghts take about 20 seconds.
the first in 20 strokes, the second in 25 strokes. Thats a major change. It looks also like a swimmfitness/strength issue.
Wiltshire is moving his body from side to side more as one unit anchoring on the arms.
You are moving like one unit more in the first lenghth, and start to disconnect hips and shoulders more in the second length.
What do your critcal coaches say?

Maybe do more dryland to improve core strength too? Getting more solid from chest to hips, more loose between hips and upper legs?
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:34 pm

both lenghts take about 20 seconds.
the first in 20 strokes, the second in 25 strokes. Thats a major change. It looks also like a swimmfitness strength issue.


I checked the video again and actually the difference comes from the push off: on the first I break the water after the first blue line and on return
the push off is not that strong and I start swimming way before the blue line.

My coaches didn't comment yet. We got the videos first and will talk about them later when training resumes.

Maybe do more dryland to improve core strength too? Getting more solid from chest to hips, more loose between hips and upper legs?

I do quite much core already. Or I like to think so :). But something more swimming specific will not hurt.

In one video I didn't post yet I was supposed to go as slow as possible. Well, it still took 20s even though I was really trying to go slow :).
In this one there should be more of the connection and sync between legs and arms, or so I wanted.
https://youtu.be/B7MZDXzcGzk

Adrian
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smootharnie
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Re: Progress report

Postby smootharnie » Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:05 pm

yeah I saw the longer pushoff, but thats not worth 5 strokes. Did you get tired in the second length?
Your slow swim is moving into dangerous territory. Putting on the brakes, stop and gp swimming...... :evil:
It comfirms Duckys opinion that you are slowing down too much between strokes
Its possible to swim with long strokes but keep it smooth.
You always want to get some traction under the hands very early after entering the water.
It doesnt have to be crazy puling, but just connection to the water and holding on from that tiny bit of grip into an armfull of water.
So not putting on the brakes, but sliding downward over that barrel etc.
You can practice this with a pull buoy or having good balance.
IIf you increase the strokerate when getting this right at a slow strokerate you are going to move into rhythm heaven.
If you decelerate too much between strokes like in your slow swimming clip only solution is to get in the next stroke faster to eliminate all nonpropulsive moments.
There is still to little core connection, also at slow strokerate. The core is too weak. first make the core stiff to exactly feel how legs and arms combine, then make it smarter.Maybe try one fin and one paddle at the opposite side and keep front and back more connected?
See the mike bottom stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39eVstTawpU
this is also good basic stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-TygMAyvtg


You made good progress so far. It just takes a lot of time.

little point:
A focal point that I am using to get more backmuscles in the pull is imagining you got a ball between elbow and waiste and press the aiir out of that ball in the second part of the pull.
leads to a more side pull instead of a rotary pull.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcH2j31hMAI
Not the most important, but fun to experiment with.
Last edited by smootharnie on Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:41 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:22 pm

I counted again, yes, you are right, there are 4-5 extra strokes in the second lap.
Don't know, perhaps I try to keep the same speed by increasing the SPM?
The first 25 is always fast and "smooth" for me.
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Re: Progress report

Postby smootharnie » Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:31 pm

yeah , I know, thats lack of swimming fitness. Or more precisly, technique endurance.
I think we all regognise this, but long time swimmers decay less in form.
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Tom65
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Re: Progress report

Postby Tom65 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:25 pm

Don Wright wrote:
IMO The flat area of the underside of the forearm is nothing like as wide as for the flatter open palm - or is it just me? :lol: "There's none so strange as folk!"


Well my underside/palm side when held in evf position is actually hollowed (although not on the same plane as the palm) due to the brachioradialis muscle sticking out.
No fat on my forearms and always worked with my hands, so my forearms are a popeye like relative to my biceps, gotta be good for swimming.

But I was talking about the back side being flat and creating a vacuum.
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Re: Progress report

Postby Don Wright » Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:02 am

Tom65 wrote:
Don Wright wrote:
IMO The flat area of the underside of the forearm is nothing like as wide as for the flatter open palm - or is it just me? :lol: "There's none so strange as folk!"


Well my underside/palm side when held in evf position is actually hollowed (although not on the same plane as the palm) due to the brachioradialis muscle sticking out.
No fat on my forearms and always worked with my hands, so my forearms are a popeye like relative to my biceps, gotta be good for swimming.

But I was talking about the back side being flat and creating a vacuum.


Hi Tom!

Think we have a lot of diversity of form! Worked last 30 years of my career in computing (just before the "mouse" became a recognized ancillary device), so my arms/legs are probably a bit spindly compared with others. Am rather hopeless at DIY-style manual jobs in general - so there aint much noticeable muscle around my shape, and gave up using the gym when arthritis made itself apparent circa age 65-70 - too much "wear and tear"! ;)

On the business of negative pressure on the topside of a down-sweeping arm when swimming . Thought that even bubbles taken down from the surface etc, made the generation of mini-vortices on the topside of the arm worse - and such little disturbances are not "good news" for smooth swimming. Think some commentators have pointed out how good it is, after a careful arm entry (i.e. sans "splosh"), to get those bubbles stripped away as the stroking arm moves further down into the water. In any case, a positive pressure area in front of the direction of an arm moving down/back, is going to leave a negative pressure area on the topside of the limb, with the pressure differential being eliminated by water ahead being drawn inwards towards the front/topside of the arm, against the desired direction of motion - like the infilling of any trailing surface hollow as one draws a spoon across the surface of treacle (that reminds me of how swimming felt when restarting after a long lay-off after an op - like weakly trying to move the arms through treacle instead of water!) On the other hand - (putting a different point of view as a "devils advocate" again!) - a commentator on a recent clip about fast flutter kicking when sprinting, reckoned that the generation of lots of bubbles as the rapidly moving feet kicked downwards, meant that there was a frothy mixture of air/water surrounding the feet, rather than still water - and this made it possible to kick more rapidly, since kicking into air is a lot easier than the more resistant water. Not that the arms can possibly turn-over as fast as the feet can kick - but maybe the bubbles taken down by an arm aren't so bad after all!
Last edited by Don Wright on Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:02 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Progress report

Postby s.sciame » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:52 pm

Adivio wrote:In one video I didn't post yet I was supposed to go as slow as possible. Well, it still took 20s even though I was really trying to go slow :).


as slow as possible 20s/25m? :) What did you eat before? If that's really your slowest pace, you should be ready to burn the lanes with a sub 20min 1500 and your css should be a damn sub 1:20/100m :twisted:
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:42 pm

as slow as possible 20s/25m? :) What did you eat before? If that's really your slowest pace, you should be ready to burn the lanes with a sub 20min 1500 and your css should be a damn sub 1:20/100m :twisted:


Good one! :) This only proves that I cannot swim slowly. Now I realize that these swims in front of the camera are pretty fast for me. My CSS is around 27s /25m. And in these videos I do it constantly in 20s. This explains why the return lap looks worse as I'm already a bit tired as smootharnie has noticed.

Next time I must try to swim with my normal CSS speed.
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Re: Progress report

Postby smootharnie » Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:24 pm

To me your stroke looks best at 21-22 strokes/25 m at the moment.
Maybe its an idea to do 10 x 50 in 40/45 seconds every workout and try to maintain strokelength on the second length under 23.
This way you build some solid technique endurance at a higher pace. When 50 becomes easy then 75 etc.
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