Progress report

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smootharnie
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Re: Progress report

Postby smootharnie » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:50 pm

Very good!
Do you have any idea what you are doing differently?
Are you just feeling stronger and smoother by increased fitness or has something changed in your swim style too, and what precisely?
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Adivio
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:58 pm

Hi Smootharnie,

I guess it is a combination of all these factors: feeling stronger and indeed smoother,
fitness has increased as well (have been noticed it also during the pink mist sets) and as changes in stile, I don't know,
a little bit of everything we've been discussing here lately: better connection of legs through core, legs and arms in sync,
head buried deeper.

This time I have used the tempo trainer set to 25s for the 400m, just to know how I'm doing. In the first few lengths I managed
to get perhaps 5s ahead of the beep and then for the rest was more or less a fight in keeping this advance.

The new CSS looks very scary. Will give me hard times in the weeks to come :).

One other observation: when I swim in the 50m lanes, times drop a lot due to missing push offs. So actually using the 50m would give a better estimation
of CSS for open water swims.
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gavinp
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Re: Progress report

Postby gavinp » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:07 am

Adivio wrote:This time I have used the tempo trainer set to 25s for the 400m, just to know how I'm doing. In the first few lengths I managed
to get perhaps 5s ahead of the beep and then for the rest was more or less a fight in keeping this advance.


Well done on the progress!

The idea of the tempo trainer is to learn pacing as well as improving your threshold. In that respect don't go off too fast and get ahead of the beep per 25m - stay on it all the way through. Pace your 400m to hit the wall each 25m on the beep rather than trying to get ahead of it. You will improve quicker that way.

Have fun!
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Adivio
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:52 am

Thanks gavinp,

well, I was trying to swim as fast as possible so faster than 25 per length was good :).

But yes, I have heard this advice many many times. It sounds a bit counter intuitive to me as the first 1 or 2 lengths
feel so easy. Wouldn't it be a waste not to take advance of it? Besides it is difficult to slow down in these 1-2 initial length.
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gavinp
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Re: Progress report

Postby gavinp » Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:38 pm

Adivio wrote:Thanks gavinp,

well, I was trying to swim as fast as possible so faster than 25 per length was good :).

But yes, I have heard this advice many many times. It sounds a bit counter intuitive to me as the first 1 or 2 lengths
feel so easy. Wouldn't it be a waste not to take advance of it? Besides it is difficult to slow down in these 1-2 initial length.


It's what happens in regular training. Swimmer goes off way too fast at the beginning and then slows down a 3rd or so through the session often fighting the water but 'thinking' that they are still working hard but actually have gone way off the pace.

For instance, have you ever ever gone off way too quickly in a race and then struggled to finish? same thing. So learn to pace yourself.

Have a look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U51oZfl3i2E
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Sprinter
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Re: Progress report

Postby Sprinter » Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:15 pm

gavinp wrote:For instance, have you ever ever gone off way too quickly in a race and then struggled to finish? same thing. So learn to pace yourself.


My own experience, as an amateur in some 50m and 100m races, is that at least over shorter distances the danger of going too slowly at the beginning is more serious.
The "struggle to finish" is the best thing what can happen -- since only in this way I can give all I have. As soon as I start "pacing" I swim too slow. However that seems purely psychological (but that's serious!), and I would guess that doesn't hold for better trained swimmers. But for me the "mad drive" makes a big difference, and that must start from the beginning of the race.

And perhaps this is also not true for somebody who really likes the longer distances: as soon as I "know" it's a bit longer, then my body automatically goes into defensive mode. So in order to swim a decent time over 100m I have to start "extremely fast", otherwise I swim way too slow.

But I imagine that should also be true for many who practice a lot at slower speed, and then shall swim "as fast as possible" 200m or 400m: I guess a good number will go quite a bit slower than what's possible.

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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:55 am

I did a small experiment yesterday while swimming my CSS set with the new target time. In the first 5x200 I tried to swim the first lengths (especially the first one) right on the beep. I managed that well but during the last 100 I was starting to get behind and I found myself many seconds above the target at the end.

Then I swam one in my usual style (1-2 seconds faster in the first 1-2 lengths) and it went really well as I reached the wall at the end of the 200 right on time.

So it seems pushing a bit in the beginning helps me complete the sets better than if I would just be perfectly paced along the way. It's all psychological but since it is working for me I will not change it.
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smootharnie
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Re: Progress report

Postby smootharnie » Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:29 pm

some day the tempo trainer will get an extra function so you can set up a decay or increase speed line for your distance.
Say 16 beeps for 400. first on 30 sec, last on 32sec and the device splits the differnce automatically up over 16 beeps. Or start 30, en 28 sec last lenghth negative split sec
Or the ideal Adivio curve :)
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s.sciame
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Re: Progress report

Postby s.sciame » Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:27 pm

Adivio wrote:
So it seems pushing a bit in the beginning helps me complete the sets better than if I would just be perfectly paced along the way. It's all psychological but since it is working for me I will not change it.


Hi Adivio, does it still work in a Goldilocks set (what happens in the 300 and in the final 400)? Or does it still work in a 7x300? In the end css sets are meant to improve your 1500m pace. If you swim a straight 1500 I guess pushing at the beginning won't pay anymore...

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Mike A
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Re: Progress report

Postby Mike A » Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:30 am

I also swim better times if I get ahead of the beep in the first 150-200 metres or so. I don't think it's entirely psychological. With me, I reckon it's down to breathing inefficiency. I swim faster for no extra effort level in the first four or five lengths, not just because my muscles feel stronger, but because I simply don't need to take many breaths. I'll typically only take 2 breaths in the first 25m, and even after 100m will only need to breathe every four strokes. By 200m I'll be breathing every three.

By contrast, if I hold back initially, it might delay the muscle fatigue, but I'll tend to breathe every 3 from the outset.

I should make clear, I'm not talking about sprinting the early lengths at maximum effort; just not swimming at reduced effort in order to keep back with the beep.
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Adivio
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:31 am

some day the tempo trainer will get an extra function so you can set up a decay or increase speed line for your distance.


This wouldn't work smootharnie. I need to be ahead of the beep :).

Hi Adivio, does it still work in a Goldilocks set (what happens in the 300 and in the final 400)? Or does it still work in a 7x300? In the end css sets are meant to improve your 1500m pace. If you swim a straight 1500 I guess pushing at the beginning won't pay anymore...


The sets are usually 6x200 and 10x300 (the red mist) and seldom some 400s. For these it works. I don't test 1500 very often but I think it will still work for that too. As Mika A is also saying, it is not like I'm sprinting in the beginning, I'm going just a bit faster and this proves to be a good primer for the rest of the distance.
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Huoleton
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Re: Progress report

Postby Huoleton » Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:14 pm

The first and last lengths don't include a turn so if you start the beep just when you start swimming and swim constant pace then you should be a bit ahead of the beep in the beginning and the beep should constantly catch you up so that sounds just when you touch the last wall.

For very short efforts up to about a minute many people feel they get the greatest average power by starting out all out and just decaying towards the end.
For me I don't see any befit for holding anything back for 50m. For 100m I think I am faster when not starting all out but I could be wrong.
For longer efforts than one minute the aerobic system is needed more to produce ATP so pacing starts to play a bigger role.
The oxygen debt generated in the beginning starts to build up and at some point the speed will collapse dramatically.
So longer the distance more important the pacing is. Difference being do you need to pay the debt during or after the effort.

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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:11 am

Ok, so I switched to new CSS time in my CSS set and since this new time is so challenging,
after the first 200, I didn't need anymore to speed up in the first lengths. I was able to swim
by the beep for almost every length. So it seems that the new CSS time is hard enough to
provide me with the priming I need for working hard :).
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Adivio
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:44 am

Thanks for asking Ducky!

Have been having massage + stretching for the hip flexors almost every week. And I try to stretch
as much as possible by myself as well. But progress is slow. I cannot yet recognize anything
new in the way I feel in the water.

Have also been paying constant attention to the full body connection while swimming taking in
all the advice you gave on this forum. I recently noticed that if I coordinate the hands and kick better,
it is easier to maintain the speed, especially when tired.
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:37 am

Thanks Ducky!
My plan exactly. I know it is a long process.

Meanwhile in the water: even though I struggle with the new CSS pace (seems to be too fast), I got encouraging results from the
pink mist sessions: last week ~1 or 2 minutes faster for the 25m length and today almost 3 minutes faster for the 50m course. Seems that
I can maintain the speed for longer now.
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:24 pm

Have been checking some videos and I now have a routine for stretching and using the foam roller. But I don't do it every day.
I have to say that time is really short. But surely I can try to do more. What a never ending fight this is! Now most of my swimming sessions
hurt badly. I mean the good kind of hurt :). But as far as I get faster or can sustain the effort for longer, I accept the pain with joy.
The other day I managed to nail the CSS set right to the last beep using the new pace. This is again a small step in the right direction.
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SharkFM
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Re: Progress report

Postby SharkFM » Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:05 am

Just curious Adivio are you using a cap and doing flip turns during your speed tests?

Adivio
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:22 am

Just curious Adivio are you using a cap and doing flip turns during your speed tests?


Cap yes, I needed for holding the tempo trainer.
Flip turns, no. I don't yet master them.
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:25 am

Hi Ducky, I think I'm just afraid of flip turns :). I usually get water down my nose and then I also get dizzy.
It's a very unpleasant feeling I have to say.
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:54 am

It surely helps to know that others went through same kind of problems.
I have no doubt that if I do it constantly, I can also make it work. I'll put flip turns back on my do list.
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