Progress report

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Adivio
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:09 pm

Fair points. I could experience this oxygen deficit while switching from 25 to 50m pool.
Now the 50 feels the same as the 25.
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Mike A
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Re: Progress report

Postby Mike A » Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:09 pm

I see quite a few people do open turns underwater. It's a better option (from an open-water-simulation point of view) if you're not confident with flip turns.
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Adivio
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:03 pm

New test today. I was aiming for Smootharnie's 400m time but was 4s short. Maybe next time :).
CSS dropped by 2s. And still not doing flip turns (but practicing those almost every time I am in the pool).

17.Oct.15 400 (7:05) 200 (3:24) CSS 1:51
21.Nov.15 400 (6:59) 200 (3:20) CSS 1:50
15.Jan.16 400 (6:37) 200 (3:13) CSS 1:42
27.Feb.16 400 (6:34) 200 (3:15) CSS 1:40
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Adivio
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Wed May 11, 2016 8:17 am

I re-tested the CSS last Saturday and the result was disappointing: 400 (6:41) 200 (3:18) CSS 1:42.
I knew things will not go very well as lately I was not able anymore to hold to CSS
pace in training. This is something I cannot explain especially because I feel
better in the water and I feel that the body position improved a lot.
Well, not much time to change anything before the summer season.

17.Oct.15 400 (7:05) 200 (3:24) CSS 1:51
21.Nov.15 400 (6:59) 200 (3:20) CSS 1:50
15.Jan.16 400 (6:37) 200 (3:13) CSS 1:42
27.Feb.16 400 (6:34) 200 (3:15) CSS 1:40
07.May.16 400 (6:41) 200 (3:18) CSS 1:42
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Sprinter
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Re: Progress report

Postby Sprinter » Wed May 11, 2016 5:14 pm

Hi,

how do you swim your 200's and 400's ? Do you go "all out", or do swim in such a way, that the speed for 200m and 400m becomes very similar (as one can see from your numbers)?

My motivation is, that I "come from the school" of emphasising the importance of speed training, because only by swimming fast (for shorter distances) the technique is boosted. Intuitively I would guess (really, just a guess) that could be the reason for your plateau -- your technical capabilities would be "used up".

So perhaps you could try some phase with more intense fast swimming?

The following is some general discussion, and as such you might consider this from a "theoretical" point of view ("everything is possible"); (that's a "trigger warning" -- it might annoy, since I don't follow SwimSmooth here).

If people see that going to a longer distance, the speed nearly stays the same, they typically (at least in these circles ;) ) react with "good endurance!". But just consider it from the other direction, going to a shorter distance you don't gain much -- thus you *lack* the ability for speed.

It seems to me, that at least regarding their web pages, SwimSmooth is somewhat ambiguous regarding "speed": They say explicitly
http://www.swimsmooth.com/training.html
that you should not sprint (by the way, their example via weight training is, to the best of my knowledge, considered nonsense by most people doing serious weight training -- short sessions with heavy weights are considered by many as much more efficient than long sets with low weights; but on the other hand, what is the relation between swimming and weight training anyway?? And actually, though apparently their example is aiming at showing that "maximum effort is no good", actually their numbers are, for weight training, maximum effort, that is, sprinting!).
But then they say "still include some anaerobic and sprint work" (left to the kitchen sink, but still it's there).

I think SwimSmooth does not like "periodisation" (or am I wrong?). I mean in the harmless sense, for example as proposed above, that you might go for some time, say 3 months, to a different training regime. To me it makes sense to change training regimes.

Sprinter
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Re: Progress report

Postby Sprinter » Wed May 11, 2016 5:43 pm

Adivio wrote: This is something I cannot explain especially because I feel
better in the water and I feel that the body position improved a lot.


I have never seen (*personally*) somebody (me or anybody else) directly gaining speed (any distance) by some form of technique improvement.
I believe the power and endurance have to be re-added (and then there is the danger that the "improvements" turn out to be illusions, since the better feeling was connected to swimming slower).

Just the fact of concentrating (or just observing) technique should cause for most people de-emphasising strength and endurance. Seems unavoidable, but would make periodisation necessary.

And then I think body position, core strength and all that, are just necessary conditions for fast swimming, but in isolation they don't mean much.

s.sciame
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Re: Progress report

Postby s.sciame » Thu May 12, 2016 2:10 pm

Adivio wrote:I re-tested the CSS last Saturday and the result was disappointing: 400 (6:41) 200 (3:18) CSS 1:42.
I knew things will not go very well as lately I was not able anymore to hold to CSS
pace in training. This is something I cannot explain especially because I feel
better in the water and I feel that the body position improved a lot.
Well, not much time to change anything before the summer season.

17.Oct.15 400 (7:05) 200 (3:24) CSS 1:51
21.Nov.15 400 (6:59) 200 (3:20) CSS 1:50
15.Jan.16 400 (6:37) 200 (3:13) CSS 1:42
27.Feb.16 400 (6:34) 200 (3:15) CSS 1:40
07.May.16 400 (6:41) 200 (3:18) CSS 1:42


Hi Adivio, just a few personal thoughts: comparing to my path, your jump from css 1:50 to 1:42 in less than 2 months was really fast, were you really "ready" for that? Given the following 1:40 I'd say yes, but then 1:42 again on May, mmm... By "ready" I mean being able to complete without failures not only a given fresh and fruity set at css pace (eg the Goldilocks set), but also a Red Mist from css+6 to css+3.
As Sprinter pointed out, these css tests could be not very accurate (on 27 Feb you were 2s slower in the 200, that's strange). Personally I don't do the css test anymore, I estimate my current css just by doing css and Red Mist sets (SS suggests something like this with the new Swim Guru app).
That said, it could also be a matter of periodization as Sprinter says, and one thing is sure: the path from 1:50 to 1:40 is MUCH easier than the path from 1:40 to 1:35 (that's my personal experience at least).

Hope that helps a bit,
Salvo
Other SS forum members and I are also on swim.palstani.com

Adivio
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Thu May 12, 2016 4:19 pm

Hi Sprinter,

how do you swim your 200's and 400's ? Do you go "all out", or do swim in such a way, that the speed for 200m and 400m becomes very similar (as one can see from your numbers)?


I try to swim at a constant speed, first the 400 then the 200 after a short break. I usually am a bit faster in the first lengths.

I think SwimSmooth does not like "periodisation" (or am I wrong?). I mean in the harmless sense, for example as proposed above, that you might go for some time, say 3 months, to a different training regime. To me it makes sense to change training regimes.


My goal for the summer is IM distance and there is not much time left. So don't want to change anything anymore. Will need to improve open water
skills anyway so plenty of challenges ahead.

It seems to me, that at least regarding their web pages, SwimSmooth is somewhat ambiguous regarding "speed": They say explicitly
http://www.swimsmooth.com/training.html
that you should not sprint (by the way, their example via weight training is, to the best of my knowledge, considered nonsense by most people doing serious weight training -- short sessions with heavy weights are considered by many as much more efficient than long sets with low weights; but on the other hand, what is the relation between swimming and weight training anyway?? And actually, though apparently their example is aiming at showing that "maximum effort is no good", actually their numbers are, for weight training, maximum effort, that is, sprinting!).
But then they say "still include some anaerobic and sprint work" (left to the kitchen sink, but still it's there).


Shouldn't swimming be more like running? Training regimes for sprinting and long distance are so much different.
As I am aiming for long distance, shouldn't I train with long swims as I do for marathon training? Of course I do intervals and tempo runs as well but
without the long runs I couldn't survive the marathon.
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Adivio
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Thu May 12, 2016 4:25 pm

s.sciame wrote:Hi Adivio, just a few personal thoughts: comparing to my path, your jump from css 1:50 to 1:42 in less than 2 months was really fast, were you really "ready" for that? Given the following 1:40 I'd say yes, but then 1:42 again on May, mmm... By "ready" I mean being able to complete without failures not only a given fresh and fruity set at css pace (eg the Goldilocks set), but also a Red Mist from css+6 to css+3.
As Sprinter pointed out, these css tests could be not very accurate (on 27 Feb you were 2s slower in the 200, that's strange). Personally I don't do the css test anymore, I estimate my current css just by doing css and Red Mist sets (SS suggests something like this with the new Swim Guru app).
That said, it could also be a matter of periodization as Sprinter says, and one thing is sure: the path from 1:50 to 1:40 is MUCH easier than the path from 1:40 to 1:35 (that's my personal experience at least).

Hope that helps a bit,
Salvo


I think I was ready. It was going really well and I was able to nail those new CSS times. But then something happened. There were 2 or 3 weeks with less than normal visits to the pool (holidays and such) and suddenly I was not able anymore to keep the CSS times. And it seems that the way back to 1:40 is pretty steep.
Disappointment comes also from the fact that I feel better in the water with better body position. But this does not translate in same speed as before :).
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s.sciame
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Re: Progress report

Postby s.sciame » Fri May 13, 2016 2:37 pm

I see, it's always disappointing and puzzling when you get slower and don't really know why, but it happens. One thing I like to do to have a clear picture of what's happening is to often swim longish sets with Tempo Trainer in mode 3 (I want to know exactly what my stroke rate is and whether it is sustainable), count SPL and count beeps during the turns and pushoff (and pay attention to pushoff length as well). In the end being slower means:

- lower stroke rate
- shorter stroke
- slower turns
- a combination of the above

So, by knowing exactly these metrics you have some more objective data to assess why you can't nail those css sets at 1:40 despite feeling better in the water, and work on it more specifically. For instance, a slightly slower stroke rate (eg from 60SPM to 59) could cost you almost 2s per 100m (all the other things being equal).

If you're focused on IM distance for this summer, do a lot of Red Mist sets if not already doing, they give you much confidence!

Happy swimming,
Salvo
Other SS forum members and I are also on swim.palstani.com

Sprinter
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Re: Progress report

Postby Sprinter » Fri May 13, 2016 5:28 pm

Adivio wrote:I try to swim at a constant speed, first the 400 then the 200 after a short break. I usually am a bit faster in the first lengths.

To the best of my understanding, this should invalidate the formula's assumption. Adam ones explained, on my request (somewhere there must be the thread) the origins of that formula: it is a purely empirical observation, that the formula happens to match "often" (at least for well-trained swimmers) their assumed "threshold" speed -- nothing more! The formula has no internal logic, it is a pure data fit. So if you don't swim the 200m and the 400m on different days, as all-out efforts, then the formula has no meaning. It was observed often, that swimming too slowly for these time trials(!) results in CSS speeds which are too fast.

It seems due to this fact, that in their new system, SwimSmooth doesn't use that formula anymore (because they don't see the value of making time trials(!) for 200m and 400m, which are too short distances for what SwimSmooth considers (unfortunately, I must add)).

Adivio wrote:My goal for the summer is IM distance and there is not much time left. So don't want to change anything anymore. Will need to improve open water
skills anyway so plenty of challenges ahead.

Sure; perhaps once the "season" is over, you might re-consider your options.

Adivio wrote:Shouldn't swimming be more like running? Training regimes for sprinting and long distance are so much different.
As I am aiming for long distance, shouldn't I train with long swims as I do for marathon training? Of course I do intervals and tempo runs as well but
without the long runs I couldn't survive the marathon.


As far as I know, swimming is indeed very different from running:
1. The technical aspect is much heavier in swimming.
2. Swimming can (and thus must) be trained at a much higher effort level than running. One of the reasons for that is the detrimental effects of gravity on your body through running, from which the body needs to recover, which is completely missing for swimming. For example (here I am a bit more knowledgeable) with sprinting, runner-sprinters don't run much with high speed, swimmer-sprinters do!
Every normal body is able to absorb (after some time) training 6-7 days per week swimming, say 2 hours per day, and mostly high effort levels. This appears to be impossible for running, and distance running has to happen a lot at *low speed*..

Am I correct that you have around 3 training sessions per week? Then I believe that it is perfectly possible for you to have an additional pure sprint session per week -- your body can take that (different from running). Sure, perhaps you don't have the time, don't like that all, or the adaptation might take longer than what the approaching season dictates. But just to mention ... :twisted:

When I did my first swimming camp, 6 days two sessions of two hours swimming per day, plus (some) dryland training, mostly swimming rather fast (no CSS or something like that, but more as I like it :D ), that was an eye opener for me (namely it worked rather well). Sure, the two sessions per day need the support by doing not much else otherwise (other than eating and sleeping!). But one session per day is perfectly doable.

Hopefully you find something (partially) interesting in the above. I can't really say something special on your case, and so these are some thoughts hopefully somewhere in the vicinity.

Ah, yes:
Adivio wrote:Disappointment comes also from the fact that I feel better in the water with better body position.

I have made on various occasions the experience, that "feeling better" does not mean "better". Perhaps something else changed. Or it is exaggerated now. I definitely needed various video analysis sessions to really improve stuff at the end. (I believe swimming is a very dialectical sport, progress happens in spirals, sometime 2 steps forwards, 1 step back, sometimes 1 step forward, 2 steps back (necessarily).)

Adivio
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Sun May 15, 2016 3:10 pm

s.sciame wrote:I see, it's always disappointing and puzzling when you get slower and don't really know why, but it happens. One thing I like to do to have a clear picture of what's happening is to often swim longish sets with Tempo Trainer in mode 3 (I want to know exactly what my stroke rate is and whether it is sustainable), count SPL and count beeps during the turns and pushoff (and pay attention to pushoff length as well). In the end being slower means:

- lower stroke rate
- shorter stroke
- slower turns
- a combination of the above

So, by knowing exactly these metrics you have some more objective data to assess why you can't nail those css sets at 1:40 despite feeling better in the water, and work on it more specifically. For instance, a slightly slower stroke rate (eg from 60SPM to 59) could cost you almost 2s per 100m (all the other things being equal).

If you're focused on IM distance for this summer, do a lot of Red Mist sets if not already doing, they give you much confidence!

Happy swimming,
Salvo


Thanks Salvo. I will leave this experiments for the next season. Now I'll focus on the long swims.
I have consistently do the red mist sets, not exactly by the book but anyway, around 3km in an hour in 50m pool.
And now I will increase to 4km. Lately I have just did a few continuous swim session with no beeper and realized that
I perform better than when splitting them into 300 or 400m. Perhaps because the effort is more evenly distributed.
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Adivio
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Sun May 15, 2016 3:15 pm

Hi Sprinter,

thanks for the insights. Indeed, running and swimming are very different kind of sports, I realize now.

I hate the tests (actually I love them when I succeed :) ) so I will do them less often and follow progress during the
usual CSS or pink/red mist sets.

I swim 4-5 or 6 times per week so perhaps a faster session can fit easily. But lets see, now it's open water and long
swims in the pool.

And yes, feeling better in the water means nothing. Must have some new video taken and see exactly what's going on.
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Adivio
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Sun May 15, 2016 8:53 pm

Went to pool today and did a 4km non-stop, 25m lane, open turns. Time was 1h13min which according to my standards was pretty good :).
I used the beeper set on 28s just to see how the speed evolves. First 500m, basically the warm-up, I was falling behind by many seconds which was expected.
Then I started to pick up the speed and make significant gains for the about 1.5km. Then I plateaued on the 28s for 1.5km and in the last 500m I started fading slowly. Overall 1:50/100m.

The long swims give you time to think about what it is that you do in the water and what I discovered today was a new power in the pull. It felt like falling on the extended hand with body and hand arched and then pulling lots of water using the lats and the chest muscles. This happened during the fast part of the long swim.

I love the long uninterrupted swims :). Will continue doing these in the coming weeks.
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Campagnolo
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Re: Progress report

Postby Campagnolo » Mon May 23, 2016 3:17 pm

Went to pool today and did a 4km non-stop, 25m lane, open turns.


Hi from Germany!
I did almost the same 2 days ago. 4km non-stop, 50m lane, flip turns, wet suit.
This was a test, because I will do an 4km OW competition in two weeks and I wanted to get used to the wet suit.

I finished 1:02:30, which i´m satisfied with.

My 1000m splits where
1. 1000m 15:16
2. 1000m 15:31
3. 1000m 15:53
4. 1000m 15:51

(I could break it down further with my Garmin Swim datas)

So I started out too fast and the 2nd half was sort of tough.
Also my stroke rate increased from 36strokes/lane up to 44, as my speed dropped.

The last 6 month I trained mostly USRPT stuff. Never anything more than 400m.

Adivio
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Tue May 24, 2016 2:40 pm

Hi Campagnolo,

there are some really good splits. You were wearing a wet suit. Do you happen to know
what effect this had on your time? Asking as I'll be using one in competition and I'm
eager to know what to expect.
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Campagnolo
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Re: Progress report

Postby Campagnolo » Tue May 24, 2016 3:22 pm

Hi Adivio,

I think, the wetsuit makes up for at least 5-6sec/100m.

Last night I did an 1000m test in 15:12 min.
public 25m-pool w/o lanes, flip turns, speedos, alone .

So do the math.. :D

Adivio
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Re: Progress report

Postby Adivio » Wed May 25, 2016 7:41 am

I need some more information. How faster are you in the 25 lane compared to 50?
Once I know this I'll have all the data to do the calculations :).
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Campagnolo
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Re: Progress report

Postby Campagnolo » Wed May 25, 2016 8:32 am

I don´t have much data from the 50m pool this year yet.
the best comparison is a series of 400m,
which I did in 6:20 in 25m pool,
and 6:30 in the 50m pool
at about the same effort Level.

Campagnolo
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Re: Progress report

Postby Campagnolo » Fri May 27, 2016 6:43 am

Some more data :D

Yesterday I did a 1000m in 14:55min.
50m pool and wet suit.
But this time it wasn´t all out (90-95%).
No warming up. So I swam progessive.

I stick to my 5-6 sec/100m for the wet suit.


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