Don Wright wrote:Hi "Sprinter"!
Am having a lot of PC trouble accessing some websites and any associated video clips - my PC just "freezes". So haven't been able to look at the race club flip turn stuff yet (PC doesn't like it, or my SIPE thread clip). Think my "JAVA" s/w is out of date but cant easily do any updates for it!
You should be able to just download the videos, and then watch them with some video-tool, independent of any web browser (then also no Java etc. is involved). On a Linux machine one can just use the command-line tool "youtube-dl", but your video-player *should* have the possibility to download from an url, or from youtube, just have a look at the menu. It might be, that the basic versions of video-players on microsoft/apple products are severely hampered, but for example MPlayer has the availability for sure. I myself can't watch videos on youtube, since I don't want to sign the new google-warrant they want to force on you, and so I always just get the youtube-url and download the video -- this has also the big advantage that you get rid off the advertisements, and you can watch it in slow/fast speed.
Don Wright wrote:Have been "chewing over" my problem of sinking down too low after a tumble - think I will conform to the method on page 78 of Shelia's book that I mentioned, the legs aren't brought up close to the chest until the head/shoulders are piked UW, with the legs still straight up near the surface, until the tumble progresses further.
I think this is a wrong understanding of what is going on: the flip itself should go FAST
, and your considerations to me look like *creating* a problem, not solving one! The flip-turn with an as-small-as-possible-quick-turning-ball (hope you get the basic image) is as simple as it gets:
1. You approach the wall, as normal. Ideally you would even speed up, but as utmost speed is not so much a concern here, you can ignore that, and also the usual (inefficient) slow-down is not a problem.
2. Then, at the "right" distance (this is, of course, then a matter of practice -- but it doesn't concern the principle), as explosively as possible you move your head towards your feet (not the knees, I would say), and bringing at the same time the knees to your chest, creating a ball which rotates quickly, and in ONE MOVEMENT.
3. When initiating this, you have both your arms at your side, and they roughly stay at this position, while you flip, straight, so that they are just in the right position for stream-lining.
I typically do a single dolphin-kick, to help with the rotation, but I guess, that just comes naturally: so if you do it, I think it's okay, and if you don't do it resp. don't need it, that's also okay.
4. You just make a, say, 180-degree rotation in that small-ball-shape, as fast as possible (but works also for not-so-fast speeds!), so without doing anything your feet will arrive at the wall; perhaps it plays a role here, that the whole ball travels a bit forward during that time, but I don't know.
5. You aim at a trampoline-feeling with your feet, so that you get the push-off quickly; but if at the beginning you actually plant the feet for a moment at the wall, and stay in this position, horizontally (perfectly possible and natural), then you loose some time, but this should not be your major concern in this phase.
All very simple and natural. Over the years I showed this to a couple of people, none of them capable of doing it at the beginning, and after one hour or so they got it, made their first complete and reasonably fast quick turn.
I guess it is crucial here that there is a direct observer (under water), which can give immediate feedback. Perhaps this is the WHOLE ISSUE!
Don Wright wrote:Overnight, I did have some "fancy" thoughts about what might be happening. Thinking about the moving C.of.G of the feet/lower legs as they momentarily appeared above the surface as the result of drawing the legs close to the chest, while initiating the tumble by beginning to "curl up in a ball" (head/shoulders UW at this time) - then thinking about the UW picture of where my C.of.B would be while that was happening! When a vertical line through that moving C.of.G. of those momentary moving parts above the surface, moves closer to a vertical line through my C.of.B., then there will be a strong tendency for my body to be driven a bit deeper into the water,
I have no clue what you mean here; "C.of.G" ??
But in any way, neither gravity nor buoyancy or whatever plays any role here (for learning it), in my opinion, and any thought of that is just detrimental to learning it: just flip over, quickly(!), push off, DONE.
Perhaps you are not able to form the "ball", or perhaps due to missing core strength it takes too long?
Perhaps then the whole thing becomes very difficult.
Don Wright wrote: (This is a bit like doing a "duck dive" - piking at the hips suddenly while horizontal, so that the upper part of the body is UW, then swinging the legs up into an almost upright attitude - to cause a quick descent to the bottom!)
The "swinging the leg ups" is that style in your video, let's call it the "false-video", to give it a name
Sure, they don't stay straight, but there is no effort to make the small ball. I did that style myself several years ago, before switching to the ball-style. There is a certain fun aspect to it -- you definitely do a big splash at the turn (for some time I had the goal to kill with every turn the board standing at the end, saying "fast lane" or whatever, with the massive wave you are creating
(so well, I guess I exaggerate here a bit, for the sake of the story)). But the arguments against it seem solid to me:
1. If you are coming too close to the wall, you legs will land at the edge of the wall! Apparently that has happened to people .. don't know what happened to them, but I don't want to try out.
2. It needs definitely more energy.
3.. It is said to be slower. For this last point one needed measurements etc., which, of course, I never did, so I can only report what some say. Perhaps others have a different opinion, but I am not aware of that. (In general it seems that most swimming knowledge is NOT available on the Internet.)
This style needs speed and energy. So it seems likely to me, that you don't create the energy and speed needed, and yes, then I guess you don't stay on top of the game, but sink down and become fish fodder
Don Wright wrote:- hence my shoulder-blades touching the pool floor some 4 ft down, as I come out of the tumble. I reckon the answer to that, is to delay that "rolling into a tight ball" until my head/shoulders are UW in a piked attitude relative to the still outstretched legs. And that ties up with the advice on the Video clip - which you say is "FALSE!". If the style shown in Sheila's book is used, then the moving vertical lines through the C.of.G. of any above surface parts, and C.of.B of UW parts, will not be so close - so hopefully, no drop down!
To emphasise: what is definitely false is to say that creating the as-small-as-possible ball is a problem: it works very well, and furthermore well-known coaches also recommend it as the fastest style -- but this is not the real falsity here (i.e., fastest or not), but the false labelling of a valid style as causing a problem.
Don Wright wrote:
Think you say you do that "Turtle" business (as per the "FALSE!" video), with an inclined rise to the surface every time you do a flip turn (of which you must have done "millions" by now
). But surely that takes longer than approaching the wall horizontally and leaving after the flip, as horizontally close to the surface as possible!?
Of course I don't do the dive to the bottom. What do you mean with the "inclined rise to the surface"? The point is to rotate as FAST AS POSSIBLE. And I also don't understand your "that takes longer"?? The point is just to perform the rotation AS FAST AS POSSIBLE, and that is very likely precisely achieved with making a ball as small as possible, and the rest falls into place, automatically.
I found a helpful exercise, just for the beginning, is to make a ball-as-small-as-possible, and just rotate at a place (stationary) as quickly as possible, for a couple of times (in one movement). Sure, to keep the rotation going, you need the help of your hands, while they MUST stay out for the real flip-turn, but to feel, that you can actually do it, rotate like crazy around the horizontal axis, just getting it once, is perhaps a key experience. You also learn here that the really fast rotation, several times, really needs the small
ball. Furthermore you learn here to constantly blow out through your nose, to avoid letting water in. Somewhere there is a video showing this, can't remember.