Flip turn choices

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Sprinter
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Re: Flip turn choices

Postby Sprinter » Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:18 pm

Mike A wrote:So much about the flipturn is counter-intuitive. I remember when first learning I always wanted to turn too early - because, instinctively, you sense that you're rotating on an axis through your shoulders or chest, but in fact the centre of rotation is really nearer the hips.

Hm, I don't see that. Yesterday I coached a friend to learn the flip-turn, initially it didn't work at all, always getting stuck, but after practising just rotating in the water (like a ball), and, apparently most importantly, starting *early* to initiate the flip (not waiting until you are close to the wall), it worked finally pretty well for him. For him the "modern" form was actually easiest, pushing off from the wall on the back (no angle).

And bringing the arms back right away seems also of importance.

Actually, this all seems pretty intuitive to me.

Mike A wrote:I think another challenge for we intermediates (/mere mortals) is that we're approaching the wall with a good deal less momentum than elites (or even decent club swimmers). I reckon that extra speed really helps, both with the flip and with the push-off, with some of the momentum being preserved in the 'elastic collision' (with the leg muscles providing the elastic).

I also tried yesterday myself to flip-turn with nearly no speed, and you can do that, you just need to initiate the flip with a good effort. So even with just modest speed it shouldn't be a problem.

Don Wright
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Re: Flip turn choices

Postby Don Wright » Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:29 pm

I see after consulting what swim books I have, that I could have saved myself a bit of grief over my efforts to do flip turns - rather than make "The Turtle" mistake that Melissa Hubley demos in the clip I included/referred to in my earlier post!

The photos in M's great tome show too much commotion of air bubbles to see clearly what's going on as the tumble is initiated - but on page 78 of Sheila Taormina's book "Swim Speed Strokes" the photos are very clear! Photo 2 shows her arms by the sides and the straight legs up by the surface, with her head in a vertical attitude and shoulders UW - looking towards her feet (so her body is in a "piked" attitude!). Photo 3 shows her further into her tumble, with the lower legs lifting from the water as the knees bend, preparatory to rolling into ball, while her head is almost below her knees, and the arms are preparing to "throw water back behind the ears" (as Mike, said in an earlier post), on the way to bring them into a stream-lined attitude above the head for the later push-off.

So that ties up with Melissa Hubley's diagnosis of "The Turtle" fault - in saying that the legs are brought up close to the chest too soon - resulting in the body sinking deeper as the tumble progresses.

I also looked at the photos on page 82 of "Mastering Swimming", showing 4 stages of the flip turn - and there again in photo (b), the swimmer has his head/shoulders and upper chest, vertically down in the water, while the legs are still straight outstretched along the surface. So this momentary "piked" attitude seems to be the correct way to start the tumble!

I could not help being fascinated by Melissa's quick dolphin kicks made during the push-off phase - they seemed to be solely produced by quick "lower leg thrashing" up/down as she turned into a prone position and started her freestyle. Maybe I'm on the wrong track in making it a whole body dolphin kicking business - which makes the action slower, by "snaking" through the water. I see in "The Swim Coaching Bible - vol ll" in chapter 14 where Bob Gillet talks about the so-called "5th stroke" - he explains how he and Misty Hyman found she could kick faster on her side using a dolphin style kick, than by any other method. The idea being that when kicking up/down, on the tum or back, the vortices that aid propulsion from the up/down movements were dissipated by bouncing off the pool bottom or surface - that dissipation was not so marked when kicking on the side! So delaying the turn into a prone attitude while dolphin kicking on the side, or slant-wise, might be a good idea!

Bob made the further discovery that allowing the arms to waver up/down (quite extensibly!) while dolphin kicking, did in fact produce better results than trying to keep the arms motionless as they speared through the water (as Phelps does I think!). The idea was that the additional vortices created by the up/down movement of the arms, as well as the legs, augmented propulsion. In fact Bob came to the point where he discarded the idea that it was better when dolphin kicking to keep to the more widely accepted stream-lined idea of dolphin kicking within the so called "body shadow"!

Sprinter
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Re: Flip turn choices

Postby Sprinter » Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:12 pm

Hi Don,

I just looked at the video you cited (FreestyleFlipTurn-LaKy8Ox1lKE.mp4) -- and that video is simply FALSE!

The "turtle" is not only not a problem (I do this with ever flip turn), but it also recommended:
http://theraceclub.com/videos/fast-swim ... urns-flip/

You bring your knees very quickly up to your chest! Sure, if then you suddenly stop, as in the video you cited, then there is a problem, but not otherwise.

The style as in that video, without bringing the knees to the chest, seems to be considered a slow turn these days.

Don Wright
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Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:06 pm

Re: Flip turn choices

Postby Don Wright » Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:02 am

Hi "Sprinter"!

Am having a lot of PC trouble accessing some websites and any associated video clips - my PC just "freezes". So haven't been able to look at the race club flip turn stuff yet (PC doesn't like it, or my SIPE thread clip). Think my "JAVA" s/w is out of date but cant easily do any updates for it!

Have been "chewing over" my problem of sinking down too low after a tumble - think I will conform to the method on page 78 of Shelia's book that I mentioned, the legs aren't brought up close to the chest until the head/shoulders are piked UW, with the legs still straight up near the surface, until the tumble progresses further.

Overnight, I did have some "fancy" thoughts about what might be happening. Thinking about the moving C.of.G of the feet/lower legs as they momentarily appeared above the surface as the result of drawing the legs close to the chest, while initiating the tumble by beginning to "curl up in a ball" (head/shoulders UW at this time) - then thinking about the UW picture of where my C.of.B would be while that was happening! When a vertical line through that moving C.of.G. of those momentary moving parts above the surface, moves closer to a vertical line through my C.of.B., then there will be a strong tendency for my body to be driven a bit deeper into the water,

(This is a bit like doing a "duck dive" - piking at the hips suddenly while horizontal, so that the upper part of the body is UW, then swinging the legs up into an almost upright attitude - to cause a quick descent to the bottom!)

- hence my shoulder-blades touching the pool floor some 4 ft down, as I come out of the tumble. I reckon the answer to that, is to delay that "rolling into a tight ball" until my head/shoulders are UW in a piked attitude relative to the still outstretched legs. And that ties up with the advice on the Video clip - which you say is "FALSE!". If the style shown in Sheila's book is used, then the moving vertical lines through the C.of.G. of any above surface parts, and C.of.B of UW parts, will not be so close - so hopefully, no drop down!

Think you say you do that "Turtle" business (as per the "FALSE!" video), with an inclined rise to the surface every time you do a flip turn (of which you must have done "millions" by now :) ). But surely that takes longer than approaching the wall horizontally and leaving after the flip, as horizontally close to the surface as possible!?

Sprinter
Posts: 330
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Location: United Kingdom

Re: Flip turn choices

Postby Sprinter » Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:08 pm

Don Wright wrote:Hi "Sprinter"!

Am having a lot of PC trouble accessing some websites and any associated video clips - my PC just "freezes". So haven't been able to look at the race club flip turn stuff yet (PC doesn't like it, or my SIPE thread clip). Think my "JAVA" s/w is out of date but cant easily do any updates for it!


You should be able to just download the videos, and then watch them with some video-tool, independent of any web browser (then also no Java etc. is involved). On a Linux machine one can just use the command-line tool "youtube-dl", but your video-player *should* have the possibility to download from an url, or from youtube, just have a look at the menu. It might be, that the basic versions of video-players on microsoft/apple products are severely hampered, but for example MPlayer has the availability for sure. I myself can't watch videos on youtube, since I don't want to sign the new google-warrant they want to force on you, and so I always just get the youtube-url and download the video -- this has also the big advantage that you get rid off the advertisements, and you can watch it in slow/fast speed.

Don Wright wrote:Have been "chewing over" my problem of sinking down too low after a tumble - think I will conform to the method on page 78 of Shelia's book that I mentioned, the legs aren't brought up close to the chest until the head/shoulders are piked UW, with the legs still straight up near the surface, until the tumble progresses further.


I think this is a wrong understanding of what is going on: the flip itself should go FAST, and your considerations to me look like *creating* a problem, not solving one! The flip-turn with an as-small-as-possible-quick-turning-ball (hope you get the basic image) is as simple as it gets:

1. You approach the wall, as normal. Ideally you would even speed up, but as utmost speed is not so much a concern here, you can ignore that, and also the usual (inefficient) slow-down is not a problem.
2. Then, at the "right" distance (this is, of course, then a matter of practice -- but it doesn't concern the principle), as explosively as possible you move your head towards your feet (not the knees, I would say), and bringing at the same time the knees to your chest, creating a ball which rotates quickly, and in ONE MOVEMENT.
3. When initiating this, you have both your arms at your side, and they roughly stay at this position, while you flip, straight, so that they are just in the right position for stream-lining.
I typically do a single dolphin-kick, to help with the rotation, but I guess, that just comes naturally: so if you do it, I think it's okay, and if you don't do it resp. don't need it, that's also okay.
4. You just make a, say, 180-degree rotation in that small-ball-shape, as fast as possible (but works also for not-so-fast speeds!), so without doing anything your feet will arrive at the wall; perhaps it plays a role here, that the whole ball travels a bit forward during that time, but I don't know.
5. You aim at a trampoline-feeling with your feet, so that you get the push-off quickly; but if at the beginning you actually plant the feet for a moment at the wall, and stay in this position, horizontally (perfectly possible and natural), then you loose some time, but this should not be your major concern in this phase.

All very simple and natural. Over the years I showed this to a couple of people, none of them capable of doing it at the beginning, and after one hour or so they got it, made their first complete and reasonably fast quick turn.

I guess it is crucial here that there is a direct observer (under water), which can give immediate feedback. Perhaps this is the WHOLE ISSUE!

Don Wright wrote:Overnight, I did have some "fancy" thoughts about what might be happening. Thinking about the moving C.of.G of the feet/lower legs as they momentarily appeared above the surface as the result of drawing the legs close to the chest, while initiating the tumble by beginning to "curl up in a ball" (head/shoulders UW at this time) - then thinking about the UW picture of where my C.of.B would be while that was happening! When a vertical line through that moving C.of.G. of those momentary moving parts above the surface, moves closer to a vertical line through my C.of.B., then there will be a strong tendency for my body to be driven a bit deeper into the water,


I have no clue what you mean here; "C.of.G" ??

But in any way, neither gravity nor buoyancy or whatever plays any role here (for learning it), in my opinion, and any thought of that is just detrimental to learning it: just flip over, quickly(!), push off, DONE.

Perhaps you are not able to form the "ball", or perhaps due to missing core strength it takes too long?
Perhaps then the whole thing becomes very difficult.

Don Wright wrote: (This is a bit like doing a "duck dive" - piking at the hips suddenly while horizontal, so that the upper part of the body is UW, then swinging the legs up into an almost upright attitude - to cause a quick descent to the bottom!)


The "swinging the leg ups" is that style in your video, let's call it the "false-video", to give it a name ;)
Sure, they don't stay straight, but there is no effort to make the small ball. I did that style myself several years ago, before switching to the ball-style. There is a certain fun aspect to it -- you definitely do a big splash at the turn (for some time I had the goal to kill with every turn the board standing at the end, saying "fast lane" or whatever, with the massive wave you are creating :D (so well, I guess I exaggerate here a bit, for the sake of the story)). But the arguments against it seem solid to me:
1. If you are coming too close to the wall, you legs will land at the edge of the wall! Apparently that has happened to people .. don't know what happened to them, but I don't want to try out.
2. It needs definitely more energy.
3.. It is said to be slower. For this last point one needed measurements etc., which, of course, I never did, so I can only report what some say. Perhaps others have a different opinion, but I am not aware of that. (In general it seems that most swimming knowledge is NOT available on the Internet.)

This style needs speed and energy. So it seems likely to me, that you don't create the energy and speed needed, and yes, then I guess you don't stay on top of the game, but sink down and become fish fodder :cry:

Don Wright wrote:- hence my shoulder-blades touching the pool floor some 4 ft down, as I come out of the tumble. I reckon the answer to that, is to delay that "rolling into a tight ball" until my head/shoulders are UW in a piked attitude relative to the still outstretched legs. And that ties up with the advice on the Video clip - which you say is "FALSE!". If the style shown in Sheila's book is used, then the moving vertical lines through the C.of.G. of any above surface parts, and C.of.B of UW parts, will not be so close - so hopefully, no drop down!

To emphasise: what is definitely false is to say that creating the as-small-as-possible ball is a problem: it works very well, and furthermore well-known coaches also recommend it as the fastest style -- but this is not the real falsity here (i.e., fastest or not), but the false labelling of a valid style as causing a problem.

Don Wright wrote:Think you say you do that "Turtle" business (as per the "FALSE!" video), with an inclined rise to the surface every time you do a flip turn (of which you must have done "millions" by now :) ). But surely that takes longer than approaching the wall horizontally and leaving after the flip, as horizontally close to the surface as possible!?

Of course I don't do the dive to the bottom. What do you mean with the "inclined rise to the surface"? The point is to rotate as FAST AS POSSIBLE. And I also don't understand your "that takes longer"?? The point is just to perform the rotation AS FAST AS POSSIBLE, and that is very likely precisely achieved with making a ball as small as possible, and the rest falls into place, automatically.

I found a helpful exercise, just for the beginning, is to make a ball-as-small-as-possible, and just rotate at a place (stationary) as quickly as possible, for a couple of times (in one movement). Sure, to keep the rotation going, you need the help of your hands, while they MUST stay out for the real flip-turn, but to feel, that you can actually do it, rotate like crazy around the horizontal axis, just getting it once, is perhaps a key experience. You also learn here that the really fast rotation, several times, really needs the small ball. Furthermore you learn here to constantly blow out through your nose, to avoid letting water in. Somewhere there is a video showing this, can't remember.

Don Wright
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Re: Flip turn choices

Postby Don Wright » Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:58 am

Not having much PC luck this morning! Thought I'd try using the "IE" browser instead of Google "Chrome" to look at that Race Club video - and that worked OK! But then I missed the "deadline" for advance-booking of my wife's "Spin" class for next Sunday (due to unexpected automatic o/s updates suddenly popping up - I rarely notice the little warning box in screen bottom RH corner warning of imminent shutdown :( ) - so I will be sent to the "dog house" when "She who must be obeyed!" returns later from her gym/swim activities.

I discovered when I contacted "Java Help" yesterday, that "Chrome" now ignores some Java features! I've got so used to using the "Chrome" clipboard and Find features etc, - it would be "painful" to move across exclusively to "IE". I think there were warnings and some little oddities that cropped up about this, but I just "barged on" regardless - until my PC repeatedly took to "freezing", whenever I tried the apparently "ignored" facilities. with my PC giving a "Beep" before acting strangely, and ultimately "freezing"!

Although I managed to view your "Race Club Flip Turn" clip in "IE" browser - when I went to book the above mentioned "Spin" class for my wife - the displayed club timetable had missing colour indications (which show up OK when using "Chrome") - so something is still wrong with my PC on the h/w or s/w side, and I may need to contact the Dell manufacturer to get it sorted out (the PC is nearly 8 years old, so getting a bit "ancient" by today's short-term standards). For some time I've been getting the introductory message at Chrome start-up "This computer will no longer receive Goggle Chrome updates because Windows XP and Windows Vista are no longer supported". Big sigh! Planned obsolescence!

Back to swimming! I don't need to worry about exhaling through the nose, to keep it clear, while flipping 'cos I use a nose clip (can swim without one if necessary, but I get a lot of nasal/sinusitis problems if I do). Have planned what I'll be doing at my next session, even if I can't get a wall at each end to push-off from (due to the widening fancy steps down into the pool at the entry end, and the "prime positions" being already in busy use - don't want to use the single lane while I'm mucking around ;) ) - I'll just do the standard "mid-length flip exercise" as I get near those fancy steps - as I did some years ago in a much better 25m pool while initially trying to do flips. Now I've got a bit of rotator cuff injury in my right shoulder (in addition to the osteo-arthritic troubles all over) I want to avoid pressing on top of the end wall with my preferred right arm when doing an open turn. So the flip turns, as well as being fun, would avoid the discomfort of that pressure on the grotty shoulder. I manage OK with the shoulders when doing my EVF catches, since I take care to "almost drop" my arms when doing the down-sweeps to a catch - the following pull/push phases are OK for the shoulders, it's just the initial downward arm movements that I need to take care over.

Sprinter
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Location: United Kingdom

Re: Flip turn choices

Postby Sprinter » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:29 pm

Hi Don, just two quick remarks:

I would really look into how to download youtube-videos (without a browser): it isn't difficult, and once you get that, that's easy, makes you independent of the browsers, and is more powerful.

Concerning the "mid-length flip exercise": I think there is a danger, that it might be misleading. The point is that it is natural here to strive to get back into the natural swimming position as soon as possible, and thus it is naturally done with rather *straight legs* -- while the better way, making a quick ball (with much easier and quicker rotation) doesn't feel so natural here, since after the rotation you find yourself with drawn-in legs, which is just right for the push-off, but here, without the wall, it just feels awkward, you need first to outstretch your legs.


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