Electric Swimming!

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IM-prover
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:07 am

Electric Swimming!

Postby IM-prover » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:02 pm

Ok catchy title but what I am getting at here is that in the stroke there are moments when something happen suddenly like the downbeat kick that trigger the hips to roll and then there are times when things happen that are more 'swishy' like the upbeat kick or the moving the arm towards the catch.

Electric movements:
the hand entry
the catch
the downbeat kick (especially to effect a hip movement)

Swish movements:
the recovery til the hand reaches the head
the underwater pull after the catch
Upbeat kick
some downbeat kicks (eg flutter)

Now when it comes to the hips I would have thought they are more of a swish movement but I am beginning to think they are an electric movement in that the swiftness of rotating them side to side and the degree of rotation are both tied to forward speed.

Anyway forgive my stream of conciousness style but trying to see things from a different perspective to see where speed can be gained.

IM-prover
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:07 am

Re: Electric Swimming!

Postby IM-prover » Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:31 pm

Ducky wrote:
i think i understand what you are getting at. i can only relay how i think of the movements. by looking at me swim you wouldn't think i *think* this way, but i do. smoooooth application of power. the catch is slower and deliberate and as the arm falls and takes shape i begin to apply some force and then whooooosh it accelerates to peak. kick is the same way, but i don't know how you guys think about all this kick timing from the top to the bottom i would be analysis paralysis. if you learn how to swim from the bottom up there is no kick coordination to the front it just happens and you can use any stroke timing you want. i think this is a massive problem with adult learners that they learn the stroke backwards. anyway i think of the stroke with no sudden 'zap' movements. everything is based off of my kick rhythm and just flows. honestly i feel like i'm walking down a horizontal sidewalk.



This reminds me of the Centipede's dilemma poem

A spider met a centipede while hurrying down the street,
"How do you move at such a speed, with all so many feet?"
"I do not have to contemplate to keep them all in line,
But if I start to concentrate they're tangled all the time!"

I was asking one of the best swimmers in the club I'm in how she kicks and her response was ' don't ask me, it just happens'. Some things just evolve over time and are set in place at a young age when we are more moldable. That's not to say it's too late but more conscious effort is needed.
I recently had a shoulder niggle and had to resort to just kicking with fins to get my chlorine-fix. When I recovered my kick had improved and I was more aware of what was going on 'back there'.
In your mind when you describe the 'whooooosh' of the arm accelerating back to its peak, how do you see the hip movement - are they independent movements or do they work together to generate power. Is the kick independent also or does the kick aid the hip rotation. What I am getting at are the pulses of movement that happen or are made to happen with good timing that have a multiplying effect on speed.

Don Wright
Posts: 1291
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:06 pm

Re: Electric Swimming!

Postby Don Wright » Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:26 pm

IM-prover wrote:...Now when it comes to the hips I would have thought they are more of a swish movement but I am beginning to think they are an electric movement in that the swiftness of rotating them side to side and the degree of rotation are both tied to forward speed...


For most of my mini FS sets I use shoulder-driven rotation - except when I want to move a bit quicker, I push-off from the wall waggling my hips quickly and make my arm actions tie in with that quick hip action - and keep focused on that quick hip action for the rest of the set - so my SPM is probably double my normal rate. In that case it's definitely an "electric" business - whereas the rest of my FS mini-sets are just "swish" hip action, with the hips just following the action initiated from the shoulders! Why did I try that? Possibly because anatomically it's easier to waggle the hips quickly than the shoulders - which have arm movements to slow things down!?

cottmiler
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Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 1:14 pm

Re: Electric Swimming!

Postby cottmiler » Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:02 pm

Ducky said
honestly i feel like i'm walking down a horizontal sidewalk


May I suggest that swimming fast even feels like the trotting gait of a horse!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCBrg8P7mlM&app=desktop
cottmiler is also on swim.palstani.com

smootharnie
Posts: 1770
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:56 am

Re: Electric Swimming!

Postby smootharnie » Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:56 pm

I like the idea of describing swim movements, but we can do better than electric and swiish.

With 5 words we can describe a lot of movement styles

- Jerky
- Snappy
- Smooth

which can be combined with a certain intensity

- Gentle
- Power

So throwing a ball like a girl is descibed as gentle-jerky (little force and not totally under control).
A martial arts one-inch punch is power-snappy for example.

The there are 3 different force domains we can move through in swimming:
- Balance
- Pressure
- Inertia
A recovery is never in the pressure domain, but is in the balance domain, and can move into the inertia domain at high strokerates and heavy straight arms.
An underwater armpull is mainly in the pressure domain. The hip movement is not dominated by balance or pressure, but is in the inertia domain.(ooops, do we agree here?)
The top of the foot is in the pressure domain when underwater on the downkick.Movement mostly power-snappy.
Etc etc,

My favorite in swimming is moving between the gentle-smooth and power-smooth. Ian Thorpe is a typical example.
It also depends on the effort level.
Jeanette Ottesen is mostly between gentle-smooth and power-smooth too.
easy. Moving gentle-smooth in the balance and pressure domain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsYtP8Ze88Q

Jeanette Ottesen
hard. Power-smooth and moving into the inertia domain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRO2o8x_7IU

Pal Joensen has a more harsh quality in his swim. More power-snappy instead of power-smooth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk-Uep2vgbI
Seems to me he needs that agressive snap in his kicks to counter the hard start of his pull, pushing the water down.
Combined with a tense body posture it gives a good body position riding a little higher, but at a cost.


But even a 50m sprint can look pretty smooth. Although high in the power zone and in the pressure domain.
50m sprint
https://www.facebook.com/653011364/vide ... 691496365/
Whats interesting to see that you want to bend your body a bit at every stroke for maximum power.
And even his kick looks smooth, which is one of the things next to the start of the pull that often goes from snappy to jerky.

So, who of the good swimmers here is willing to describe all the parts of the stroke in these terms?
Last edited by smootharnie on Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:40 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Don Wright
Posts: 1291
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:06 pm

Re: Electric Swimming!

Postby Don Wright » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:13 pm

cottmiler wrote:...May I suggest that swimming fast even feels like the trotting gait of a horse!...


Not in my experience!

if you have ridden a trotting horse, think one of the first things us Brit riders have to learn, is the skill of "bump trotting" (OK so cowboys don't do it ! :) ). Otherwise, the frequent horses upward hip bumps result in the rider bouncing up/down like a sack of potatoes ;) . You rise up off the saddle at one bump upwards, gripping the horses flanks with your lower legs, rising up "half-standing" in the stirrups, then slacken the lower legs grip on the flanks to sit back on the saddle, missing a further intermediate upward bump from the trotting horse's hips, during that "half-stand" in the stirrups. A continual rising/falling, at half the rate of the horses hip bumps

IMO "getting a move on" in FS involves steady movement forward with as little up/down movement as possible. Unless one is trying to put a bit of undulation into things - and then, would suggest that an alternate up/down leg action of a normal flutter kick, does not combine very well with a body action that has some up/down movement . Better in that case to "go whole hog" and use FS arm action with double leg dolphin kicking - as a "GoSwim" drill showed some months ago! That undulation is initiated by nodding the head into the water, after an inhalation and quick return of the head to the front. The undulation brings the lower legs up close to the surface, so the shins provide a larger backward-facing area, as the lower legs are flicked down, than a single leg kicking down. The snag of course, is that fast FS-ers kick more frenetically (and hence more productively) than can be achieved by a single dolphin kick per stroke cycle.

smootharnie
Posts: 1770
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:56 am

Re: Electric Swimming!

Postby smootharnie » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:45 pm

Maybe Cottmiler is swimming like Janet Evans at full speed lately. That stroke comes most close to that horses bounce
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTmI9nL7i3E
GO to the new swimforum, called ....... THE SWIM FORUM......swim.palstani.com

Don Wright
Posts: 1291
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:06 pm

Re: Electric Swimming!

Postby Don Wright » Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:52 am

At first, Janet's head action reminded me strongly of that GoSwim drill I mentioned (mixing front end FS arm action with Dolphin kicking rear end) - in which you grab a lungful of air and get the head back to the front quickly so as to initiate an undulation. However I couldn't see any up/down action from the rest of her body - so think it was Janet using a vigorous arm recovery to swing the arms over to get more momentum forwards (is she using the "cork-screw momentum" idea, by quick body roll towards the entering arms?), particularly on her breathing side - determined to get the mouth well clear of the water, to take in air instead of accidental water when inhaling. (Not much evidence of "inhaling in a smooth bow-wave trough" - too much "splosh" around due to the quick head movement! :) ) I bet her kick downbeats are nicely timed with each vigorous arm water entry, to offset the pushing drag from that arm action. To me, Janet's action looks better in the UW portion of the clip - the head rising/falling doesn't seem to be so noticeable as in the AW view when she "goes for air". I can see the similarity now (head rising/falling), to a rider's rising/falling when "bump-trotting" on a horse!

cottmiler
Posts: 1398
Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 1:14 pm

Re: Electric Swimming!

Postby cottmiler » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:52 am

It's odd that you both seem to think I was referring to the bobbing action but in fact I wasn't.

I was trying to point out the coordinated arms and legs action which follow the timing shown by the horse when trotting.
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