Rio Olympics Mens 10k

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Mike A
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Rio Olympics Mens 10k

Postby Mike A » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:15 pm

Well what a fascinating and controversial race that was!

Perhaps the fact they had to change the start from a dive-start to an in-water start didn't bode well - apparently the pontoon was washed away a few days before the event.

The boomerang-based turn buoys seemed to increase the scrapping (and penalties) at each turn, and the referees seemed rather over-zealous throughout. Perhaps they had a better view of things than the TV cameras, but how anyone can really see what's going on is beyond me! Perhaps they should have drone cameras in future, as the only angle that would really show for sure who was whacking/dragging whom would be a direct overhead view.

Suffice to say Jack Burnell was not impressed with his disqualification, alleging that we was pulled back for four or five strokes, then penalized for attempting to free himself (Mellouli is the suggested culprit). I can't see enough from the BBC's coverage to decide how plausible this is. The report on the FINA website does no more than briefly mention his disqualification. I wonder how well the yellow flags are logged, and if there's a post-mortem where they get checked against video evidence? I also wonder if there was an appeal against the decision? There seems to be conflicting reports about this.

But what an exciting rush for the line! It appeared that the Greek Gianniotis crossed the line at exactly the same time as Ferry Weertman, but the tall Dutchman managed to slap the board first, hence was awarded the gold.

And you've got to feel for Jarrod Poort, the Australian who led for so long, only to be hunted down around 1:38, and eventually finishing 21st. He seemed to veer well wide of the pack just before this - I wonder if that was tactical, or if all those boats made sighting difficult?
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cottmiler
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Re: Rio Olympics Mens 10k

Postby cottmiler » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:29 pm

Yes, interesting.

If you follow Paul Newsome on Twitter, he put out a video of his thoughts "Our Swimming Review" on the Olympics swimming, about 4 hours ago.

It's 49 mins long and I have another 15 to go and so far has been educational.
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Mike A
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Re: Rio Olympics Mens 10k

Postby Mike A » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:46 pm

Excellent, thanks for the heads-up Cottie. I will definitely give that a spin later.
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Mike A
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Re: Rio Olympics Mens 10k

Postby Mike A » Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:21 pm

Wow, some interesting stuff there. Just got to watch it before it was blocked (was wondering all along about the copyright issues!).
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Re: Rio Olympics Mens 10k

Postby cottmiler » Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:23 am

PN was banging the drum about high cadence being best and from a hydrodynamic view, he is right.

Imagine running through a thick medium like syrup. Every time you glide with both feet off the ground, you will slow down. The only way to run fast would be to keep one foot pushing on the solid ground at all times.

For those of us lacking an outboard motor in the feet department, we have to stroke fast, very fast.
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smootharnie
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Re: Rio Olympics Mens 10k

Postby smootharnie » Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:09 am

cant read Pauls stuff.

The winners pool stroke, which is about the way he swims in open water as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9U4GcasxUI (the guy in orange bathers)
Taking big strong steps through the water.
The swimmers over here are not tought the swingers stroke, certainly not the male ones who all have a long loping stroke.
Its more about the long pool stroke to get the highest pool speed. When they switch to open water after a lifetime in the pool (Rouwendaal and Weertman are pool swimmers switched to open water a few years ago and where fast right away.) they take their pool stroke to the open water.

Usually there is a big difference between the boys and the girls in stroke style.
The girls have a more swim smooth symmetric swinger stroke.
The boys usually have a longer stroke.
Triathletes with wetsuits have the female buoyancy and lack the male swimmers upper body strength.
The swinger style suits them best.

Here the examples.
They keep their style even with a pull buoy, so also without a big motorboat kick, but its getting pretty smooth delivering more constant propulsion at higher strokerates. They are not noving back and fort at every stroke in the endless pool like Dan Bullock https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feUhyCklHL0 (with his typical TI like catch and pull mechanism), even without help from the legkick.
Thats the ultimate measure of good propulsion. Stroke long or short as you wish, but keep your speed constant.


Amy de Langen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMkmz8cQjKs
a high level windmilling technique with nice gripping paddles and a little bounce. If you dont have time to set your arm vertical at every entry you are going to press some water down, which gives this little bounce on every stroke.
Having a main 2BK a the same time amplifies this.

Kyle Stolk does have a long strong style that goes into a small lope under pressure, but his speed stays pretty stable with only small dips.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2abAW7okCNg

Race footage:
Symmetric fast catch is a typical girly stroke style.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy-1q1_pdvw
Males go long and strong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdUnzHWGT4o

All our swimmers are trained by racing against a human power submarine ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Mi5FpnHMlo
Last edited by smootharnie on Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:07 am, edited 10 times in total.
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cottmiler
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Re: Rio Olympics Mens 10k

Postby cottmiler » Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:19 am

I've always thought that an endless pool would be really useful for stroke timing.
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GeorgeY
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Re: Rio Olympics Mens 10k

Postby GeorgeY » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:29 am

A huge shout-out to my fellow countryman Spiros Gianniotis who managed to win the silver metal after trying (and coming so close) many times. A deserving end to a long and illustrious career which spanned across five Olympic Games.

His success couldn't have happened to a nicer guy, I actually got to meet him four years ago when he (already a world champion) came to award the trophies in a local amateur swim race!!!

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Mike A
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Re: Rio Olympics Mens 10k

Postby Mike A » Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:58 pm

He was unlucky not to get the gold - he seemed to go for the board but miss the first time, just before Weertman slapped it.
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Re: Rio Olympics Mens 10k

Postby smootharnie » Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:57 pm

Trainer Wouda made a DIY wooden board to mimic the finish board and part of the training was finishing and hitting that board perfectly.
Wouda was very pleased that they did that training. Probably that made the difference between silver and gold.
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Re: Rio Olympics Mens 10k

Postby smootharnie » Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:41 pm

first time I have seen him swim in Rio. Incredible catchup style stroke he uses. I like Poort ballistic arm recovery stroke better, but Weertman has good sprinting topspeed, and can keep up with his long stroke during the rest of the race.
In the end Gianottis high strokerate and Weertmans slow turnover are evenly matched.
This time the smooth has won.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQY6EoYVRxs
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SharkFM
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Re: Rio Olympics Mens 10k

Postby SharkFM » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:58 pm

I've watched Weertman before in US OW racing and can't believe how long and seemingly slow his stroke is, but just motors. Cool that he made it a Dutch double.Is dat niet gek (pr: heck, means "crazy")

Gold/silver in this race are a dead heat imo. going by head position (not touch)

Going off the front is completely stupid, other than to put your name in lights for a while. Not only for the most part in cycling, but certainly swimming due to the density of the medium. At least cycling you have a chance. The energy expenditure required to open a gap in swim is HUGE!

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Re: Rio Olympics Mens 10k

Postby s.sciame » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:41 am

Ferry Weertman: full catchup stroke, stroke rate under 60SPM, clear dead spot at the front of the stroke. In open water, with swells, in the pack (lots of hustles, especially at the buoys). He basically overglided for over 9.9km (transitoned to a loping stroke only when Gianniotis sprinted) in this environment and was never stalled. Yes, he used a flutter kick but not that powerful Thorpey kick which should compensate for the dead spots at the front (nobody could kick like that for 10k). By the way, at the finish he won thanks to a glide: instead of taking the last stroke, he glided with the recovery hand raised in the air to touch asap :)

So is he a freak of nature and is this stroke effective only for him? Well, he's a tall guy (1.88m) but not a giant, he's not Sun Yang or Grant Hackett. Mellouli as well swims with a relatively long and slow stroke (around 65SPM) in the 10k. What of the famous punchy shorter fast stroke to deal with the swells and get continuous propulsion? It seems that even a catchup slow stroke can do its job.
It's also quite typical in these 10k races to see the swimmers hold back studying each other and waiting for someone to make the first move: swingers shouldn't wait too long to launch an attack because in the last 50m they usually can't sprint as well as smooths (and overgliding smooths) can do.

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SharkFM
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Re: Rio Olympics Mens 10k

Postby SharkFM » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:49 pm

I wish the term "overglider" never came into existence.

First off, 95% of swimmers I see could use some s-t-r-e-t-c-h in their stroking. I mean that is what it's all about - range of motion and being tall in the water.

Secondly, you can't label the guy an overglider if you don't know what his second, propulsion hand is doing. Swimmers with long arms and an extended range will spend more time in the water than one with shortie arms. Therefore it makes sense that the front hand, recovering quickly is "gliding". duh!

It's also more efficient to have a hand in front to open the hole in water for the rest of the body to move through. This is the reason height is such an advantage.

If you are tall and more buoyant than another person, you'll be straight up quicker in the water.

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Re: Rio Olympics Mens 10k

Postby Sprinter » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:35 pm

SharkFM wrote:I wish the term "overglider" never came into existence.

I think the point is to restrict the use of this term to non-fast swimmers. It makes not much sense to use such a term to even good swimmers, and just forget about it when discussing world-class swimmers. "Overgliding" is just a phrase to capture a bunch of related problems for "non-fast" swimmers.
SwimSmooth says "Typical swimming speed is 1:30 to 2:20 per 100m." at http://www.swimtypes.com/overglider.html .
If a swimmer is faster, then by definition it is not "overgliding".

The misuse of a term like "overglider" is a typical overstretching (in the abstract sense ;) ), from the domain of beginners / intermediate swimmers, where certain problems are rather easy to spot, to the domain of fast swimmers, where nobody actually knows what's "best". It is also a return of "swimming as beauty contest", only in the other way this time: now not the long stroke is best, but the short one is best.

I think the much too fast classification "overglider" is also a typical mistake of swimmers without experience: if you have a lot of experience, personally as well as via film/video, then you realise that much is possible out there. While, especially if you have just learned about your own mistakes, you are very quick at saying "that's not how it should be". I remember this from myself: 10 years ago I "knew much more about swimming" than now, in the sense, that I was rather quick to point out all kinds of "mistakes". Now I don't know anymore 8-)

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Re: Rio Olympics Mens 10k

Postby Sprinter » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:40 pm

Addition: when I say "I don't know anymore", then this is related to fast swimming, while for slower swimmers definitely many mistakes are easy to spot. But really only the big ones, not all these finer points: for them it makes most sense to encourage experimentation (however not all at once!).

smootharnie
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Re: Rio Olympics Mens 10k

Postby smootharnie » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:11 pm

I think the olympic 10K cant be compared to high level triathlon swimming.
The winners are coming from a pool background and are pure swimmers.
Just a tad too slow to get big medals in the international pool scene , but way higher achievable top speed (and good endurance speed) than the triathlete swimmer.
The Gianottis style swimmers are incredibly close, but if history is indicating anything:

2008... Maarten van der Weyden, Smooth pool swimmer
2012...Oussama Meloulli ........... Smooth pool swimmer
2016.. Ferry Weertman.............Smooth pool swimmer

All 3 where in quiet, pool like waters, Rio was the most real open water race.

The swinger strategy is brave, but stupid (David Davies, Jarrod Poort.
The smooths strategy is sneaky, but effective.
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SharkFM
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Re: Rio Olympics Mens 10k

Postby SharkFM » Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:50 am

Agree they are great, fast swimmers with pool speed crossing over 1:1 to the open water. Same as in our race. The competitive club kids absolutely smoke the field.
My guess is the best triathlon swimmers would be well back of the Oly OW frenetic pace, if I am not mistaken.

But hey not all nearly-great pool swimmers can tackle OW and those punishing distances. Some pool swimmers I talked to are afraid to swim in the ocean or lakes.


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