Suggestions for drills/focus

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dmc12504
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:19 am

Suggestions for drills/focus

Postby dmc12504 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:32 pm

I've been swimming for about 2 years now, and recently was joined in the sport by my 13-yo daughter. I swim about 1:45/100yd at tempo (1:30 for 100 sprint). My daughter is about half that speed and has many accompanying form challenges! I am her "coach", so the blind are really leading the blind here!

I am hoping some of you could spare a couple minutes to see our efforts in the pool and offer a tip or two. I (and she) would be much obliged!

Thanks!

My daughter: https://youtu.be/XgbckukhQ1k

Me: https://youtu.be/PXrYwAW-YKw

dmc12504
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:19 am

Re: Suggestions for drills/focus

Postby dmc12504 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:59 am

bump

cottmiler
Posts: 1398
Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 1:14 pm

Re: Suggestions for drills/focus

Postby cottmiler » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:28 am

To my mind these are the best:

1) swimming with an ankle band

2) Unco

3) water polo stroke


After those three then you can do them in combinations.
cottmiler is also on swim.palstani.com

The Dodo
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 8:44 am

Re: Suggestions for drills/focus

Postby The Dodo » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:32 am

Hi Dan!

Both clips show the typical fault that occurs as some FS-ers roll to inhale - they forget about what the legs are doing and the legs splay out quite wide (well not as wide as breast-strokers, but it's not good). The wide gap between the legs acts a bit like dragging a parachute behind you. You could both improve things IMO by imagining you have an ankle band around the ankles and flutter kick within tighter limits - particularly think about that when rolling to inhale.

For your daughter - noticed that the left arm sweeps out to the side quite a bit and that's wasteful (though it made me think she was going to do an EVF catch which involves moving the upper arm out to the side and dropping just forearm/hand down to a catch), because the hand is quite a way from the body centre line. Think the ideal during the pull phase, after making a "catch" of the water, is to bend the elbow so that it sticks out at the side of the body, but the hand is beneath the body closer to the centre line - this means that there is something like a 90 degree bend of the elbow during the pull phase. Another point your daughter could improve on, is that when the recovered arm enters the water and the hand slides in, to extend to it's full length - it is important to keep that arm ram-rod straight until it does the down-sweep to the catch. I noticed that there were some instances of a saggy elbow, and that will introduce drag (not as bad as some, who drop the elbow and have the hand tilted upwards - which really "puts the brakes on" by pushing water forwards)!

Think it's always a good idea to arrange your kicking so that you are kicking down with the leg on the opposite side to the arm which enters the water - that helps off-set the drag caused by sliding the arm into the water and extending it!

Think you could both improve things by making your flutter kicking "tidier" - by which I mean try to think of the big toes brushing against each other as the feet pass up/down, and don't kick too deeply - only so that at widest extent, the toes of the uppermost foot at the time, are only a few inches above the heel of the lowermost foot. Also think of the kick downbeats as being initiated from the hips, rather than thinking of the kick downbeat as poking the knee deeper into the water and thrashing the lower leg/foot down.

On the plus side, I must say that I didn't notice many air bubbles attached to your arms as they dropped down to a catch. IMO (though others may differ) think it's important to make the drop to a catch gently - it is not a propulsive action because the arm/hand haven't reached the right position until the palm is vertical and the forearm at least 45 degree below the surface. Any undue pressure downwards of the arm during the down-sweep to the catch will cause the legs to sink a bit. Start applying effort after the stroking arm has reached the catch!

Bye / Don

Shenaram
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 2:00 pm

Re: Suggestions for drills/focus

Postby Shenaram » Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:25 pm

All of the above.

---
First of all, sincere congratulations keeping going on swimming!
Also, all my respect for convincing your daughter to join you. I could only do the same with my wife after so many years trying. My daughter seems to prefer a cool hairstyle to a cool swimming session... (you certainly know how much time girls spend combing their hairs).

---

I think that your daughter is doing alright as has been swimming for a short time only (less than 2 years, yes?).
I am not neither a certified coach nor an elite swimmer, but if you allow me, I would like to share my view on your great videos. Please let me know if you feel that there are not constructive observations.

Shenaram
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 2:00 pm

Your daughter

Postby Shenaram » Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:36 pm

It seems to me that she still has some trouble with her body balance, particularly in keeping her body streamlined (horizontal).
That makes her breathing more difficult as the less she is horizontal, the more it is difficult to reach air with the mouth.
It also creates imbalance that forces the swimmer to do all kind or weird movements with the arms (straight pointing to the bottom) or legs (scissor kicks).

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Shenaram
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 2:00 pm

Yourself and your daughter

Postby Shenaram » Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:53 pm

With your permission, I think that I have seen also some optimisable points in both of you.

I think that the catch and pull is yet not completely mature.
It seem to me that both of you still suffer from what I call the "bird leg" syndrome. It could be also called "cat leg" or "dog leg" or anything else.
The front arm dips indeed down, however instead of properly catching the water, the hand gets crooked, then instead of pulling/pushing the arm straight backwards (toward the feet) in order to generate maximum propulsion, it is "pulled" too early out of the water upwards (slantwise) which results in arm slippage.

In your video, it can be seen between, say, 1:07 and 1:22. It has to be watched in slow motion to grasp the arm movement. Youtube should allow that by clicking on the settings, then speed button. On a still photo, it is difficult to see the arm movement.

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Last edited by Shenaram on Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

Shenaram
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 2:00 pm

Re: Suggestions for drills/focus

Postby Shenaram » Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:06 am

I wish you both good continuation, and please post again.
Feedbacks are good to read!

The Dodo
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 8:44 am

Re: Suggestions for drills/focus

Postby The Dodo » Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:06 pm

Impressed by your screen-shot extracts from the video clips, Shenaram! I didn't notice the dropped elbow you caught in that last one. IMO that arm action of having a dropped elbow is terrible for FS swimming -

(but is more correct for the fly transition from the arm in-sweep to up-sweep. As one comes to the end of the in-sweep of both arms doing their "around/back" action - the forearms/hands are re-oriented ready for the double up-sweep - where both hands are brought in close to the centre line and hands possibly below the head or shoulders, with the elbows further back towards the ribs - ["intentional dropped elbows"] - prior to the "down/back/up" action of the hands for the up-sweep.)

That "dropped elbow" is a well-known/common fault of FS-ers - and I didn't notice it on the video clips!!! Think its fair to say that FS swimmers should avoid "dropped elbows" during the pull phase after a catch, because it means a weaker pull, as when a tired FS swimmer drags the upper arm back/up with the forearm/hand trailing behind.

For an SS style catch, the elbow is above the wrist (which is further ahead/deeper down), so the elbow is a bit behind the wrist when viewed from the side - but as the pull phase starts, the shoulder elbow and wrist come more into line with each other.

martysan
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:31 pm

Re: Suggestions for drills/focus

Postby martysan » Tue Sep 13, 2016 4:20 pm

I have a off the wall question. I am 67 years old and having been lap swimming on and off most of my life. I was recently diagnoised with early stage Glaucoma and there seems to be some evidence to support that swim goggles might be causing the pressure to go up around my eyes. Has anyone heard of this? Any information would be helpful. Also, goggles/masks that reduce this issue going forward as giving up swimming would be devastating for me.

Thanks,

Marty

Shenaram
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 2:00 pm

Re: Suggestions for drills/focus

Postby Shenaram » Tue Sep 13, 2016 4:51 pm

martysan wrote:I have a off the wall question. I am 67 years old and having been lap swimming on and off most of my life. I was recently diagnoised with early stage Glaucoma and there seems to be some evidence to support that swim goggles might be causing the pressure to go up around my eyes. Has anyone heard of this? Any information would be helpful. Also, goggles/masks that reduce this issue going forward as giving up swimming would be devastating for me.


I really feel for you. Glaucoma does not sound like a friendly disease for anyone.

I am not a certified physician, therefore anything relating to medicine which I might write involves my sole opinion.
Did your physician specifically incriminate the swim goggles as the cause of your glaucoma? Although it might be, it is surprising to me as you mention that you only lap swim on and off. Do you mean everyday multiple-hour sessions, but not necessarily many times a day? Or do you mean once every other week?

There seems to be many factors to glaucoma, including blood pressure, and not necessarily only outer pressure on the eye. In any case, your physician's diagnostic is the one which one has to follow, doubtlessly. However, should you feel that you need some more information, here is link to a NIH website relating to glaucoma:
https://nei.nih.gov/health/glaucoma/glaucoma_facts

As to swim mask as opposed to swim goggles, I think that there exists various models. Aquasphere is one possible brand that comes to my mind. The sealing contact points are on the forehead, cheeks, and nose. There should not be much pressure on the eyes with such masks. Others may know other brands or models, and have experience with those.

NOTE: I would certainly not want to seem annoying, but I think that creating a new thread with a proper title for your matter would be more appropriate as it would be more visible to other forum members. You may receive more answers. Your post is currently burried in someone else's thread, which does not discuss diseases nor glaucoma.

Shenaram
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 2:00 pm

Re: Suggestions for drills/focus

Postby Shenaram » Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:17 pm

Speaking of eye diseases caused by swimming, there is one which comes to my mind.
Swimmers who wear contact lenses are prone to infections caused by bacteria that are floating around in the water.
Pool waters are indeed disinfected but not sterile. It is especially the case when people do not properly take a shower before entering the swimming pool. Nasty pathological bacterias can be everywhere, including in the hairs, between the toes and under the arm pits, among others.

Wearing contact lenses increases the contact time with the eyes in addition to "rubbing in" the bacteria into them. Some people keep their contact lenses without properly cleaning them, even after the swim session. That can cause severe diseases and eventually lead to sight loss. It seems wiser to remove the contact lenses before swimming and wear optical swim goggles. Some people wear (normal) swim goggles on top their contact lenses, but it is not a good idea either, in my opinion. Oftentimes, pool water leak in the swim goggles, thus leading to the same result. Of course, it does not happen every time, but it is safer to prevent than to cure.

Although I do not wear contact lenses (yet), I also clean my swim goggles after every swim session and dry them properly. Moisture may promote growth of mould, for instance between the rubber seal and the swim lens (just my opinion). That would translate in swimming with a culture of mould at less than 1 cm for the eyes... yummy!

My apologies to the OP for hi-jacking his thread.

The Dodo
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 8:44 am

Re: Suggestions for drills/focus

Postby The Dodo » Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:44 pm

Re "martysan"'s problem and the business of face-masks versus goggles. So here we go "off-piste" yet again! : -

Am currently using a "Cressi Skylight" Swim mask made by an Italian firm. You can read about/buy them from Amazon.com for about £24 I think. They have a soft silicone "skirt" varying about 1/2 wide or more around the joined lens area, and have a rigid "eyebrow spanning" frame with only a thin transparent "separator" over the nose bridge area so you get uninterrupted frontal vision. The silicone skirt fits above the eyebrows and just below the cheekbones, which means there is no pressure around the eye sockets. I can feel the suction as I push them in towards my face to make a good seal, and that seal is very good, I don't need to tighten the mask head strap at all. They provide 180 degree vision and the lens area is quite big compared with goggles hence the name "Skylight"!

Am very short-sighted (-15 dioptre "magnification" required for each eye), and over some 60 years of swimming have tried all sorts of ordinary and prescription goggles. The problem with goggles is the need to sustain a good seal around the eyes - and that usually requires the head strap to be quite tight - ending up with the "panda eyes" effect when the goggles are removed. With the above described swim mask (obviously they have ordinary clear lenses!) I am disadvantaged compared with most other swimmers, they need to be within a few metres of me, for me to realize they are there at all!!! So, I walk the uniform depth of the 20m pool when I first get in, to see if there are any others headed towards me in the un-roped area - and make necessary adjustments to my course if needed - then settle down to swim up/down my chosen line - happily I can see the tiled bottom OK! My last attempt to get decent prescription goggles ended in disappointment - they were "off the shelf" and only went down to -12 dioptre magnification, and furthermore required me to really push them hard around the eye sockets to try and get a good seal - which didn't last very long! I did have a very successful pair of prescription swim goggles, but sadly the rubber eye cups perished after many years of use, and the firm that produced them "folded".

Very sad about "martysan"'s glaucoma - hope they "catch it" in time to halt it's progress. My brother-in-law (age 73) has recently been diagnosed with it. Read the info in the link - a much more complex issue than I thought. I looked at what the website said about cataracts as well, since that's another of my little problems - "making do" with "Can-C" eye drops to help "melt" them for the past 5 years or so. I dare not have surgery to implant a plastic lens - it's too risky for very short-sighted people (retinal damage likely!). I started to learn the Braille dots system "just in case", but hopefully may still have some sight left before my time runs out!
Last edited by The Dodo on Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:44 am, edited 3 times in total.

smootharnie
Posts: 1770
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:56 am

Re: Suggestions for drills/focus

Postby smootharnie » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:23 am

You are both overgliders with a rushed pulling and kicking action.
I have a strong suspicion your daughter is swimming exactly like you where when starting out.
Your stroke has smoothened out and you look pretty relaxed and comfortable in the water now, but the gaps in movement and traction cause the rather violent kick together with the pull that is started form a forward position with an forarm that is not yet vertical when the pulling starts, so it is bound to result in dropped elbows, which it does.
To fill the pause your kick has slight crossover tendency. An instinctive action to keep some kick going when the arm is extended and the body is slowing down and sinking.
Try to smooth your movements out over the strokecycle so you get and idea that the action of the finishing arm is gradually taken over by the other arm etc etc. Try to make it feel like the body is surging forward almost contiuous.
If you enter the arm, go gradually to catch position and accelerate furher when the arm is more vertical.
This way you can hold the arm more vertical when the lats start pulling that arm backwards instead of forcefully trying to rotate the arm down with the small rotator cuff muscles whil pulling backwards. Those small muscles cant handle that load.
Swimming without a kick, pressing your buoy, keep the legs together all the time and try to get some constant propulsion while doing that.
Do 25 m at a time, relax and think what to do with the next length to keep better balance.

Your daughter has a balance problem. Both in fore-aft position and around the rotational axis.
she is overrotating and searching for balance with the arms and with the legs via a wide scissor kick.
She has to learn to get comfortable with less arm and leg action.
I guess the classic swimming on the side, one arm out in front with a taut core and straight line could help a bit.
A lot of these until the bodyline feels rock solid.
Adding strokes from this basic position and reducing rotation from there.
The same with the wide kick. try to feel why the scissor kick is used. Now its from overrotation and loosing balance at the edge of the rotation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMpHulcTiQQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w2eObsDBlY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwOHzq8Qgso
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41f8srbokjg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM4NQ9Ri3GI


The underwater arm stroke.
take a good look how this guy pulls his body forward in the water using a good paddle arm shape and compare this movement with your own movement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQdRFAtNZt8

google youtube on sculling.

And offcourse, everything starts with the correct posture in the water.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V5PYspkknE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmx4nctdyFs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1zlZjpTzQ4

Enough to digest? :D
GO to the new swimforum, called ....... THE SWIM FORUM......swim.palstani.com


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