Your mental image. Above or under water?

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smootharnie
Posts: 1770
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:56 am

Your mental image. Above or under water?

Postby smootharnie » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:00 pm

There are 2 mental images that pop up during my swim.
One is that I am swimming on top of the water. anchoring the arm and throwing the body over the water, like the water is too dense to drag a body through, and the body is pulled easier over the water.
Or the other one when I feel like a submarine really going in and through the water.
The first happens whan the recovering arm is more strongly linked to the underwater pulling arm, in a slightly more kayak stroketiming.
The submarine image pops up during the catchup long stroke timing.
Anybody the same experience?

Some good footage of swimsmooth swinger, more kayak timing from 1 min 50.
Ballistic arm recovery linked to the pulling arm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shLXAJJd0zI#t=2.297278
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Sprinter
Posts: 330
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:54 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Your mental image. Above or under water?

Postby Sprinter » Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:21 am

For me, hip-driven and shoulder-driven are perhaps the "lead ideas" (don't know whether "image" cuts it).
The former "long and at the surface" (with the arm entry), the latter "deep and strong".

Then there's the kick; sometimes the kick is dominant.

Sometimes the rotation.

And there are the fingertips; sometimes they are dominant.

With a straighter arm-recovery also that can be felt strongly, and thus dominate, but the last half a year or so I don't do that anymore.

smootharnie
Posts: 1770
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:56 am

Re: Your mental image. Above or under water?

Postby smootharnie » Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:31 am

its as if you only can spend your energy once.
I also get weak at he front part when I focus on everyting from the ribcage down, or vica versa.

This clip shows for me the problem of working at the edge of a very dense medium and the almost vacuuum above, together with gravity thats pulling you in the thick medium.
You are working at the edge of the dense and the light stuff.your ams want to grab in the dense stuff to get optimal grip to push you forward., Gravity is pushing you in the dense stuff, but your body doesnt want to travel through the dense stuff.
If it would be denser like solid you could drag your body over it, like real crawling, but your body sinks in it for 90%, so you are crawling through the stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhRxHe_3j9Q

I believe we are not at the strength level we can pull ourselfes so hard forward that pulling ourselfes over the water gives less total drag, but we are not so terribly far from reaching this point either.
For some light swimmers with surfboardlike upperbodies it might be a good strategy to use some parts of their stroke to pull themselfes a fraction over the water instead of under it temporarily.
Working at surface of the water makes for more diversity in swimming styles I guess. each bodytype has certain optimal movements to work partially in the air or in the water.
More so than if moving 100% under water I guess.
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The Dodo
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 8:44 am

Re: Your mental image. Above or under water?

Postby The Dodo » Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:13 am

Think the body rides higher when using a Kayak (or arm wind-milling) style - because there are no dead spots in which only the legs provide propulsion, as the lead arm is outstretched while the other arm is still recovering. Catch-up style has no propulsion from the arms for a significant portion of the stroke cycle, so I would expect the body to lie lower when using "catch-up" style. That would explain the "skimming the surface" and the "submarine" mental images - they may in fact be giving a true "report" about body placement relative to the surface. The more continuous unbroken action of the arms - being at the front end - will naturally give the impression one is almost skimming over, or very near the surface, rather than ploughing along a little way under it!

Is it all to do about the fact that in the catch-up style for a part of the stroke cycle, only the legs are pushing the body forwards while the arms aren't helping propulsion. Whereas, in the kayak style, the arms are pulling the body forwards, helped by the continual leg action. If the swimmer has low-lying legs, then when only they are pushing the body forwards, then it will be more of a ploughing than a skimming action!?

P.S. Another idea - "off-piste" as is my wont. If one is swimming for relaxation, and not trying to beat the clock, is there any merit to the TI idea of reducing body roll to an absolute minimum (just sufficient for safe inhalation). It seem to me if one swims flatter, the "downward" shoulder of the stroking arm does not protrude into the water flow passing beneath the body so much - so possibly that means less frontal drag (it does seem to enable one to move a bit faster). However, getting the shoulder more involved in the arm movement enables one to put more "oomph" into the pull! Decisions,decisions! :roll:

smootharnie
Posts: 1770
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:56 am

Re: Your mental image. Above or under water?

Postby smootharnie » Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:41 pm

Not so long ago according TI, swimming with 90 degrees rotation was the most streamlined position to be in, and now flatter is better?
Swimmers where compared with knifelike clipperbows instead of flat barges.
All those crazy theoretical copied `thruths` that can be so easily tested with a rope and a force sensor. :roll:
If you strive for the smallest frontal area you are doing well.
Rotated 30 or 90 degrees doesnt matter much in drag for the same optimised minimal frontal area shape.

Talking about frontal area, suppose you find a way to bounce your streamlined torpedo out and in the water.
Drag is assumed to be linearly linked to frontal area. More area under water= more drag.
Without bounce (or some kind of undulation out and in the water) 100 % of the main body is under water, parts of arms above water all the time.
With a vertical rhytmic movement sometimes 100% of the body and 20% of the arms are under water, sometimes 90% of the main body is under water.
Avarage ride height is the same, but sometimes more body is out, sometimes more body is in.
If you manage to make the underwatershape more streamlined when the body is deeper in the water compared to constant height, and maximise propulsion when the body rides high, you will move faster than without the vertical movement in the water.
Looks to me loping can accomplish these requirements partly.
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The Dodo
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 8:44 am

Re: Your mental image. Above or under water?

Postby The Dodo » Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:08 am

Yes you are quite right that TI at one time promulgated the idea it was faster to swim on the side than flat. I once had a TI book that was strong on the sharp "tea-clipper keel" idea, sailing almost on it's side! But one of their coaches who for a short time (some years ago, remember!!!) was on the forum - was equally strong about "Don'r roll anymore than is essential to facilitate inhalation!".


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