Pace Descriptors, again! :)

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xand
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Pace Descriptors, again! :)

Postby xand » Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:03 pm

Hello all, I'm unsure of what these terms found on the training plans mean relative to CSS: easy, steady, moderate, fast and very fast.

I've found this question already, but it was never answered: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2397&p=15655&hilit=training+plan+fast+pace+css#p15655

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nightcrawler
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Re: Pace Descriptors, again! :)

Postby nightcrawler » Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:32 am

username wrote:I just received my 35 Session Training Plan - Olympic and Half (Level 2).

In terms of pace, the workouts refer to paces as "easy", "steady", "moderate", "fast", "very fast", etc.

I'm assuming that these paces are based off your CSS.

However, I can't find corresponding times for these descriptions.

Does something like this exist anywhere in the Swim Smooth literature:

Easy = CSS + :15 per 100m
Steady = CSS + :10 per 100m
Moderate = CSS + :05 per 100m
Fast = CSS
Very Fast = CSS - :05 per 100m

Here's an example from the plan:

3 x 150 moderate pace +10s
I understand that this means swim 150m > rest for :10 and repeat 2 more times, but I have no idea as to what my *time* should be for a 150 at "moderate" pace

Thanks!


Hi,
I swam with those classical concepts for over 30+, they are all waste of time in terms of speed development. I am also a swimming trainer, unfortunately they are still teaching us these household terms in the courses and seminars and new trainers memorise them like parrots.

If you want to gain pace, I recommend you to read carefully and understand the USRPT format. This is a training format discovered by Prof. Dr. Brent Rushall, it has been used for 30+ years, based on only scientific research and proven by many olympic swimmers:
http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/bullets/47GUIDE.pdf

After reading this manual 2 times, please continue on reading the below...

As you might have realized, trainings which are done according to the CSS are of fake results, because your CSS is changing in course of the session.

USRPT facilitates more work in the pool than traditional training. The work is high intensity and race-specific so that training effects transfer to racing performances. It reduces injury and prevents excessive fatigue by moderating the workload for all swimmers as individuals. USRPT is very structured in terms of format but extremely flexible in terms of content. The above manual defines most of the USRPT format parameters which should be understood by swimmers and coaches so they can advance their swimming experience and performances. Using this format, the primary goals of USRPT are the development of the four stroke techniques and the learning of mental skills that enhance practices and racing.

Swimming with CSS or +/- of CSS do not make and contribution on swim speed development.
https://vimeo.com/88990735
https://vimeo.com/88106670

Fast - According to what? CSS? CSS is changing instantly in any event.
Easy - According to what/whom/when?
....

The evidence is now clear and incontrovertible that swimming technique and velocities are linked directly. Change velocity and technique features have to be altered accordingly to produce the most efficient form of progression through water at the altered velocity. The belief that one can transfer techniques from one pace to another is now a disproved myth. The Principle of Specificity still remains a major principle of behavior despite swimming coaches attempting to disprove it over the past 60 years. A tacit implication of the specificity principle is that only by combining skill instruction and physical conditioning, with the emphasis being on the former, can one expect continued performance improvement throughout a swimming career. A failure of a swimmer to improve is a failure in coaching.

After all, hope you will understand that moderate, steady, easy, sprint, fast, very fast concepts are bullshits.

Good luck.
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

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Re: Pace Descriptors, again! :)

Postby s.sciame » Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:10 am

nightcrawler wrote:Fast - According to what? CSS? CSS is changing instantly in any event.


Hi NC, not sure I follow you here: why is CSS changing instantly? According to Swim Smooth framework, once you do the CSS test you get a result which is supposed to equal your current 1500m race pace, and it takes weeks of training before it changes even slightly.

It also seems to me that the longer the distance you're training for, the more USRPT and CSS training tend to be similar to each other: USRPT guide covers race distances from 50m to 1500m, and training for 1500 includes a lot of 100m repeats with shortish rest. If USRPT guide had to be extended to longer than 1500m distances (say 5k for instance), I suppose it would also suggest 200m or 300m reps with short rests at 5k race pace. Isn't it CSS training as well?

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Re: Pace Descriptors, again! :)

Postby nightcrawler » Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:25 am

s.sciame wrote:
nightcrawler wrote:Fast - According to what? CSS? CSS is changing instantly in any event.


Hi NC, not sure I follow you here: why is CSS changing instantly? According to Swim Smooth framework, once you do the CSS test you get a result which is supposed to equal your current 1500m race pace, and it takes weeks of training before it changes even slightly.


Is there any academical or scientific research for this? Let me give you a real life example from my 200m-400m and 1500m free time trials that I did last year:

---- 200m free ----
0100m 1:12 (1:12)
0200m 2:28 (1:16)
---- 400m free ----
0100m 1:14 (1:14)
0200m 2:33 (1:19)
0300m 3:51 (1:18)
0400m 5:08 (1:17)
According to CSS calculation test my CSS is: 5:08 - 2:28 = 2:40/2 = 1:20 for 100m

---- 1500m free ----
0100m: 01:28 (1:28)
0200m: 02:54 (1:26)
0300m: 04.18 (1:24)
0400m: 05:42 (1:24)
--->>> my CSS in the first 400m is 1:25
0500m: 07:05 (1:23)
0600m: 08:27 (1:22)
0700m: 09:49 (1:22)
0800m: 11:10 (1:21)
--->>> my CSS in the second 400m is 1:20
0900m: 12:31 (1:21)
1000m: 13:42 (1:21)
1100m: 15:01 (1:19)
1200m: 16:20 (1:19)
--->>> my CSS in the second 400m is 1:20
1300m: 17:39 (1:19)
1400m: 18:59 (1:20)
1500m: 20:15 (1:16)
--->>> my CSS in the last 300m is 1:18

If I had considered it according to the CSS test (400m-200m...), it would be 1:20 for me. But for 1500m, which is also a long distance event, CSS is dancing between 1:25 and 1:18 for me.

s.sciame wrote:It also seems to me that the longer the distance you're training for, the more USRPT and CSS training tend to be similar to each other: USRPT guide covers race distances from 50m to 1500m, and training for 1500 includes a lot of 100m repeats with shortish rest. If USRPT guide had to be extended to longer than 1500m distances (say 5k for instance), I suppose it would also suggest 200m or 300m reps with short rests at 5k race pace. Isn't it CSS training as well?
Salvo

"I suppose it would also suggest 200m or 300m reps with short rests at 5k race pace." It is your assumption not the reality. You would better ask this to Dr. Brent Rushall. But I can give on emore a real life example: When I swim with 1:20 average pace in the USRPT sets, I can maintain this pace in the distances above 3K, I havent tried a 5K yet but last season I tried 3K in the pool and swam 40:42, which means that a pace around 1:20.

CSS is just a rough indicator not a scientifically proven criteria.
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

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Re: Pace Descriptors, again! :)

Postby xand » Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:13 pm

I do see your point, and it goes totally against the swimsmooth system, so let's see if someone from swimsmooth crew can give us additional thoughts.

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Re: Pace Descriptors, again! :)

Postby nightcrawler » Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:45 pm

i wanted to mention that css is changing during the set, it is not stable, so the terms like easy, moderate,... which are based on the css will also be not stable and reliable. They will be just some indicators but not the reality itself.
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

xand
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Re: Pace Descriptors, again! :)

Postby xand » Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:56 pm

Actually I have not seen them stating that these terms are relative to CSS, I've only seen such thing on that post I mentioned up above, which is why I actually asked this.

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Re: Pace Descriptors, again! :)

Postby Adivio » Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:09 pm

---- 200m free ----
0100m 1:12 (1:12)
0200m 2:28 (1:16)
---- 400m free ----
0100m 1:14 (1:14)
0200m 2:33 (1:19)
0300m 3:51 (1:18)
0400m 5:08 (1:17)
According to CSS calculation test my CSS is: 5:08 - 2:28 = 2:40/2 = 1:20 for 100m

---- 1500m free ----
0100m: 01:28 (1:28)
0200m: 02:54 (1:26)
0300m: 04.18 (1:24)
0400m: 05:42 (1:24)
--->>> my CSS in the first 400m is 1:25
0500m: 07:05 (1:23)
0600m: 08:27 (1:22)
0700m: 09:49 (1:22)
0800m: 11:10 (1:21)
--->>> my CSS in the second 400m is 1:20
0900m: 12:31 (1:21)
1000m: 13:42 (1:21)
1100m: 15:01 (1:19)
1200m: 16:20 (1:19)
--->>> my CSS in the second 400m is 1:20
1300m: 17:39 (1:19)
1400m: 18:59 (1:20)
1500m: 20:15 (1:16)
--->>> my CSS in the last 300m is 1:18


nightcrawler, according to my calculations, if I average the 100s from your 1500, I get 1:21.6/100.
Isn't this almost spot on with what you got from the 200 and 400 m trial using the CSS formula?

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Re: Pace Descriptors, again! :)

Postby nightcrawler » Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:35 pm

i dont mean the 400-200 css calculation itself.
i mean the difference(variance of css) in the laps of 1500m, i wanted to mention the instability of the css with this real life example:

0100m: 01:28 (1:28)
0200m: 02:54 (1:26)
0300m: 04.18 (1:24)
0400m: 05:42 (1:24)
--->>> my CSS in the first 400m is 1:25
0500m: 07:05 (1:23)
0600m: 08:27 (1:22)
0700m: 09:49 (1:22)
0800m: 11:10 (1:21)
--->>> my CSS in the second 400m is 1:20
....
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

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Re: Pace Descriptors, again! :)

Postby Adivio » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:58 am

But why would you choose to go so much slower in the first 400?
Shouldn't you aim for as even pace as possible?
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Re: Pace Descriptors, again! :)

Postby woody » Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:41 am

Hi Nightcrawler the way I have understood the CSS 400/ 200 test is that it's a way to predict your likely total time to swim 1500 without actually having to swim a 1500 and divide by 15 to get your real CSS.
So the 200 and 400 gave a CSS of1m20 so a 1500 prediction of 20m 00secs so for a rule of thumb predictor it seems quite accurate.
Sometimes in squad one of us will question our CSS times as being too fast or too slow and Emma's response is usually it's only valid today but test it by doing a 1500 and see.
From all your analysis you should be an overglider but at 1.20 you can't be . I can only dream of getting that fast.

woody
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Re: Pace Descriptors, again! :)

Postby nightcrawler » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:57 pm

woody wrote:Hi Nightcrawler the way I have understood the CSS 400/ 200 test is that it's a way to predict your likely total time to swim 1500 without actually having to swim a 1500 and divide by 15 to get your real CSS.
So the 200 and 400 gave a CSS of1m20 so a 1500 prediction of 20m 00secs so for a rule of thumb predictor it seems quite accurate.
Sometimes in squad one of us will question our CSS times as being too fast or too slow and Emma's response is usually it's only valid today but test it by doing a 1500 and see.
From all your analysis you should be an overglider but at 1.20 you can't be . I can only dream of getting that fast.

woody



Of course I see, 1500m overall time stands for 1:20/100m pace. But what if I do not want to consider the 1500m overall time, but the 800m time?

One thing should be understood:
1) CSS is not a scientifically proven concept, it is just an indicator.
2) There is no explanation of CSS in sport science, it is just a practical test to create an axiom.

For example what if had broken the 1500m freestyle time trial at 800m? Then my average pace would be slower(around 1:24) than the longer distance's 1500m(1:20). In this case, CSS based workout wouldnt be suitable 800m training. Can you imagine swimming longer(1500m) but faster than the shorter distance(800m), funnnnnyyyyy. As a told at the outset, CSS is not stable.

---- 1500m free ----
0100m: 01:28 (1:28)
0200m: 02:54 (1:26)
0300m: 04.18 (1:24)
0400m: 05:42 (1:24)
--->>> my CSS in the first 400m is 1:25
0500m: 07:05 (1:23)
0600m: 08:27 (1:22)
0700m: 09:49 (1:22)
0800m: 11:10 (1:21)

----------------------------------------------------------------

By the way, SS has added some clearences on the CSS:
http://www.feelforthewater.com/2016/10/validating-css-test-using-red-mist.html

Instead of these traditions I recommend you to follow USRPT principles:
https://vimeo.com/ondemand/weswimusrpt
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

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Re: Pace Descriptors, again! :)

Postby woody » Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:42 pm

Great links I do the red mist every Monday.
I can see that the race pace would work my Friday main set homework is closest to this at 10 x100 at CSS less 4 which to me is probably race pace.
If I was younger I would probably ignore the beeper on these swims and swim to exhaustion as I know that when I work hard and consistently on things like 10 x100 at faster than CSS my longer swims get easier too.
Having started late in life and been consistent with Swimsmooth training around 10000m a week ( hugely lower than yours)I love it that I get faster as I age as my technique is improving quicker than my ageing.Its the one claim I can have over Phelps At 64 I'm quicker than I was at any time in my life and hopefully I will be quicker at 70 than now but mostly I just love being able to do it.

woody
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Re: Pace Descriptors, again! :)

Postby nightcrawler » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:54 pm

I appreciate your struggle and enthusiasm, you are an inspiration to swimming, great work, well done? :shock: ;)
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

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Re: Pace Descriptors, again! :)

Postby woody » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:31 pm

Cheers kind words.
Maybe next year I will get to Adam Walkers clinic he does in Turkey . One of my friends did it this year but my partner was worried about world events .
Everything is won or lost inside your own head.

The best time to learn to swim was a long time ago the second best time is today

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Re: Pace Descriptors, again! :)

Postby Shenaram » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:37 pm

nightcrawler wrote:If you want to gain pace, I recommend you to read carefully and understand the USRPT format. This is a training format discovered by Prof. Dr. Brent Rushall, it has been used for 30+ years, based on only scientific research and proven by many olympic swimmers:
http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/bullets/47GUIDE.pdf

There are many pro coaches that do not completely agree with USRPT, though.
Here is one article among others.
https://swimswam.com/the-pros-cons-and- ... ing-usrpt/
The replies to this article also bear some interest, I think.

Here is another one:
http://thelab.bleacherreport.com/contro ... -win-more/




nightcrawler wrote:I swam with those classical concepts for over 30+, they are all waste of time in terms of speed development. I am also a swimming trainer, unfortunately they are still teaching us these household terms in the courses and seminars and new trainers memorise them like parrots.

I personally do not advocate one methodology over the other, or any in particular. However, some phrasings found in USRPT documentation or website may sound quite inflated, and might lead people to also repeat certain of their sentences unwillingly, such as:
- " USRPT is the only swimming-coaching system that aims to develop the whole swimmer."
- "Claims made on bulletin boards and in newsgroups and discussion groups mostly originate from individuals endowed with deep-seated ignorance and propensities to display publicly that which they do not know. "
- "Race-pace training has been proven to be the most effective training method and the only way to train consistently at high speeds is to by using ultra-short intervals."
- "the results of USRPT have been proven to be consistently superior to that of traditional swimming training"

I insist that I do not advocate any one methodology, I am just waiting to see statistically relevant results (i.e. many swimmers reaching the top-elite level, not only one or a few). I do hope they do, though. Otherwise...?

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Re: Pace Descriptors, again! :)

Postby Adivio » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:06 pm

Hi nightcrawler,

I still can't understand your logic:
For example what if had broken the 1500m freestyle time trial at 800m? Then my average pace would be slower(around 1:24) than the longer distance's 1500m(1:20). In this case, CSS based workout wouldnt be suitable 800m training. Can you imagine swimming longer(1500m) but faster than the shorter distance(800m), funnnnnyyyyy. As a told at the outset, CSS is not stable.


The CSS test is done so that you swim time trials for 200 and 400. You can't just pick 400 from your 1500 and use that in the calculation,
especially a 400 you have yourself decided to swim slower.

If I understood right, CSS is for 1500 or longer targets. 800 is then something different.
Also on http://swim.palstani.com/ forum.

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Re: Pace Descriptors, again! :)

Postby nightcrawler » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:31 pm

The logis is simple, there wasnt any statement on ss site stating that css is for distances over 1500(ss added that statement last week - BUT I ALSO DONT AGREE WITH THIS, below I gave some examples regarding this). I could use it for 800m training, why not? it is training session, why cant I be flexible? then if I had trained for the 800m my css would be 1:22 (i am swimming the 800 all out 10:55). There is no science based explanation behind the css, so I can claim that css is just one of the indicators, not the only/best/up-to-date methodology. I can perform the development in my critical speed for the distances above 1500m by using the USRPT science based system with its sets like 30x75, 40x50 with race pace and 15-20 secs recoveries between the repetitions.

On the other hand, css can be used for 100 or 200m events, observe the split times of pro athletes in these distances per 50m :)

Nystrand is a good example for this, when he broke the 100m WR he swam with 11:70 average per 25m. Then for the 100m his sustainable speed (in other words the CSS) would be around 11:75 per 25m (by ignoring the dive effect which is approximately 1.5 secs).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7oL8y8xRA4&feature=youtu.be
Analysis of the race:
0:10:10 (1.5 seconds gain from the dive, then pace would be 0:11:60, SPL:13)
0:22:30 (0:11:70, SPL:16)
0:33.90 (0:11:60, SPL:16)
0:45:83 (0:11:97, SPL:18)
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

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Re: Pace Descriptors, again! :)

Postby xand » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:12 am

Guys I appreciate the discussion, but I don't feel my original question was answered so can anyone please help me with that?

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Re: Pace Descriptors, again! :)

Postby nightcrawler » Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:58 am

Hi xand,
The journey of human has started for more than 10.000.000 years, since then human has been questioning the truth but show me one who could have found the exact truth! :D :lol:
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion


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