Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

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smootharnie
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby smootharnie » Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:58 pm

yeah, Solar is also a high effort back end pusher, and its true that the rear end is often forgotten with all that high elbow talk.
Your style is certainly a bit special. Maybe its working for you. We all have our personal optimal styles, and its all basically sound.
Like your non-kick (which is a kick in my view),balance and bodyline without hesitation. Really little to improve there.
Still think your arm action is not really optimal from an hydromechanical point of view from above water, but without good underwater footage its hard to pinpoint where further improvement is possible.
Just saying what comes to mind by comparing your stroke to all those other elite and avarage swimmers on youtube or in the pool.
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nightcrawler
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:05 pm

if it is a kick(for your point of view), why there is no pace difference between with and without ankle bands. by the way, i m a good kicker, almost same with my swim speed.
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smootharnie
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby smootharnie » Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:32 pm

If I remember right your swim speed is always the same, with kick, without kick, with paddles without paddles, with open hand closed fist etc etc
so your stroke is an enigma anyway :)
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nightcrawler
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:58 am

13.11.2016 - Morning Session - SCM Pool - 4000m

Set1: 20x25m freestyle int:0:30" (SR:1.10, SPL:15-16, avg:0:20)

Rcvry: 100m catchup - 100m backstoke

Set2: 16x50m freestyle int:1:00 (SR:1.07, SPL:16, avg:0:43)

Rcvry: 100m catchup - 100m backstoke

Set3: 12x75m freestyle int:1:30 (SR:1.05, SPL:16, avg:1:05)

Rcvry: 100m catchup - 100m backstoke

Set4: 8x100m freestyle int:2:00 (SR:1.00, SPL:16-17, avg:1:26)

Drill: 400m catchup

P.S: Hey kick-lovers smootharnie and salvo; today I used classical 6bk and catchup timing. Swam with slower SRs and longer intervals in order to setup the technique. At the moment, it is impossible for me to implement 0.85 SRs by maintaining the 16SPLs, for a couple of weeks try to improve the SR to 0.95 and if it works, in other words, my fitness level develops, then will change my strategy in open water from 2bk to 6bk. In any case, 6bk helps to burn more calories and get rid of the love handles.
Last edited by nightcrawler on Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

smootharnie
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby smootharnie » Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:23 am

I am certainly not a kick lover.
Bad kicker with stiff ankles, so balance and 2BK are my friends.
Cant you make your kick amplitude as small as possible so you dont need to go to catchup with a 6BK?
Cloe Sutten can do that too probably :)
You have a very hip driven non kick, which I like. Maybe let the knees relax a bit to get a bit more kneebend on the 6BK what makes kicking easier?
(Maybe total nonsense advice from a bad kicker.)
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nightcrawler
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:47 pm

smootharnie wrote:I am certainly not a kick lover.
Bad kicker with stiff ankles, so balance and 2BK are my friends.

wow, do you have any footages?

I like cvatchup timing even in my no kick I try to use front quadrant timing which is near to catchup timing, but full catchup timing requires 6bk... As you wrote smootharnie, trying to keep the kick amplitute small(narrow kick or flutter kick) may also help for energy consumption.

Well, we know if you PRESS RESET, it will help you work better and faster. I started everything from the beginning. I hope catchup timing will help me to refresh and rebuild my technique. Nice footage of catchup timing is shown below and soon I will share my own catchup timing video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LplmxO8 ... e=youtu.be
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

smootharnie
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby smootharnie » Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:23 am

I think our starting point is pretty similar but you are working at a higher skill and endurance level..
Avarage lenght, natural horizontal floaters, preference of sending energy to the upperbody instead of the legs.
My kick is crap, my arms are longer (+ 3 inch ape index), so high rev swimming feels a bit rushed.
I also share your natural preference for catchup instead of a fast catch and its a bad tendency that I am trying to get rid of because its not effective with a non propulsive kick, but the streamlined stretched out stage is very addictive in that stroke type.
I think you are stretching out a bit too much in your arm stroke which makes it more difficult to get to a good solid catch.
Thats the slippage I am talking about and its all over the place with Ti swimmers who also stretch out too much too long.
We have to go to traction a touch earlier and use the body to push the low side into catch.
Thats the only way to get the strokerate up and get better traction in the pulling stage, but it feels very different as the stretch out-pull kind of action.
Brooke Bennett is an extreme example , but copying Mel Benson in this more realistic.
Maybe try to enter very wide and short, waterpolo style and push with the body and recovering arm on that wide wing to get traction from the sinking action.
Watch Ledeckies left side. Falling into the catch , hold it and bounce forward from there with a big hip driven kick..(which is similar to your non kick or Shelleys almost straight leg kick)
Thats what you want on a lesser scale at both sides.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUtde_vtmIQ
Last edited by smootharnie on Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:08 am, edited 3 times in total.
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s.sciame
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby s.sciame » Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:33 am

Like many adult beginners I'm bad at kicking too. However I believe this is not a good reason to give up learning and practicing a good 6bk. Currently I'm at a stage where I'm faster when I kick than I am with a pull buoy. A couple of years ago it was the opposite.

That said, yesterday I did my fastest Red Mist ever alternating a light 6bk at slower rates (around 60spm) with a non kick at faster rates (around 68spm). The non kick feeling was magic, but I still can't hold 70spm for 1hour.

Chloe McCardel crosses the English Channel week in week out at 60spm with a light 6bk.

Salvo
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smootharnie
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby smootharnie » Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:52 am

Ducky said it in another thread. Once your internal clock is totally in sync with good balance etc the 2 bk or 6bk will happen almost automatically. they wave behind and can be accentuated more or less.
Before thing happen aytomatically they have to be repeated endless times.
I got this automatic feeling sometimes by kicking one lenght and swim back recovering freestyle , but hated the kicking part so stopped doing it.

Here a real kick lover (8bk?), but still combined with an arm cycle that could be from a 2BK swimmer
https://www.dropbox.com/s/msth2f4ts1bji ... 20Anna.mp4
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nightcrawler
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:52 am

smootharnie wrote:Ducky said it in another thread. Once your internal clock is totally in sync with good balance etc the 2 bk or 6bk will happen almost automatically. they wave behind and can be accentuated more or less.
Before thing happen aytomatically they have to be repeated endless times.
I got this automatic feeling sometimes by kicking one lenght and swim back recovering freestyle , but hated the kicking part so stopped doing it.


I agree, some time later kick finds its way automatically, I now it very well, I am an ex-kicker ;) .
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

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nightcrawler
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:05 am

15.11.2016 - Morning Session - SCM Pool - 4100m
Set1: 20x25m freestyle int:0:30" (SR:1.05, SPL:15-16, avg:0:19)
Rcvry: 200m catchup drill
Set2: 16x50m freestyle int:1:00 (SR:1.05, SPL:16, avg:0:43)
Rcvry: 200m catchup drill
Set3: 12x75m freestyle int:1:30 (SR:1.05, SPL:16, avg:1:05)
Rcvry: 200m catchup drill
Set4: 8x100m freestyle int:2:00 (SR:1.03, SPL:16-17, avg:1:26)
Set5: 5x100m freestyle int:1:45 (SR:1.00, SPL:17, avg:1:22)

Notes: Today during the sets I tried both catchup timing and front quadrant timing with less catchup. Catchup drill really pulls down the SPL at the same SR.

On the other hand, less catchup seems a bit faster, in Set5 I didnt focus on the catchup timing, actually I did front quadranttiming but it was not a full catchup, I realized that less catchup with proper kicking timing is a bit faster.

In any case, my kick is not a steady 6bk, I kick 3 times down as soon as I catch (during pull and push phases) then release kicking during recovery then after hand entry&catch start kicking 3 times down again. But while doing this I cannot focus on catchup timing, just concentrating on the 3 down kick after the catch phase... Hope I could express myself. :)
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

cottmiler
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby cottmiler » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:36 am

The problem with catch-up is that it takes over the whole stroke and embeds the wrong stop-start action. Paul Newsome does not favour catchup and once you are hooked on it, it seems very difficult to get rid of it. Once you discover the drug of gliding along then you have wrecked your future improvement.

If you watch young people "swimming" in the sea, you notice that their arms windmill frantically with a very high head thrashing from side to side . I think those people could develop quickly into better swimmers than me with only a little training.

Can I cure myself of catch-up? No. I tell myself that I am swimming in treacle and any hesitation in the stroke will be fatal. Maybe if I had a drag parachute behind me it would help. I would like to swim in an endless pool.
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nightcrawler
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:12 am

Cottmiler,
Everyone says something, but there are realities in life :D Need to test and pick up if it is beneficial.

Most swimmers including both the sprinters and distance are using catchup pattern.
(Sun Yang, M.Phelps, Tae-Hwan Park, Ian Thorpe)

See Park, Peter and Sun in the below video while implementing the catchup timing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIlHQWPdBec

parktiming.jpg
parktiming.jpg (138.31 KiB) Viewed 3111 times


suntiming.jpg
suntiming.jpg (105.39 KiB) Viewed 3111 times


Thorpe is explaining his catch timing(front quadrant - near to catchup) in the below video by his Australian accent :)) see 12:25
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slcLdAHSVoY
There are many good examples of record breaking swimmers who use catchup timing...

Peter Van Der Kay(middle distance swimmer):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCIdjbCyVB8

By the way, Mr. Uncle Terry's cry out ("it is TI it is TI") after the success of Sun Yang in London olympics is really a big marketing bullshit, there is even no any little correlation between Sun's technique and TI.
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

The Dodo
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby The Dodo » Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:51 am

Hi "cottmiler"! I had a wry grin at your post : -

cottmiler wrote:The problem with catch-up is that it takes over the whole stroke and embeds the wrong stop-start action. Paul Newsome does not favour catchup and once you are hooked on it, it seems very difficult to get rid of it. Once you discover the drug of gliding along then you have wrecked your future improvement...

...Can I cure myself of catch-up? No. I tell myself that I am swimming in treacle and any hesitation in the stroke will be fatal...


OOOH ER! :shock: Am a bit shocked that someone who has been at swimming as long as you have, should write such a thing! :? Maybe that's because you get decent propulsion from your flutter kick - in order to carry you over the moments when there is no arm propulsion (lead arm resting up by the surface as the rear arm is recovering). Go on be a... :evil: ... Consider it to be a challenge to overcome! ;) For a couple of pool lengths, get up some decent momentum forwards, then start your lead arm down gently to a catch, just as the rear arm exits the water - keep at it, stroke cycle after stroke cycle. See if you can get to the situation where the stroking arm is into the pull phase as the recovering arm is mid-way. If you're worried about not getting an inhalation safely due to things going awry because of balance problems - I think you will be agreeably surprised. Having an existing decent momentum forwards does I think obviate any expected balance/inhalation difficulty. You just need to snatch muscular rest during the slow'ish drop of the lead arm down to a catch to avoid a build-up of fatigue from the continuous arm action. If you are successful in this - then the old "catch-up" style will seem almost anathema! The FQS style of arm action is sensible - but sometimes there are advantages to "bending", or challenging the rules - and IMO it can be successfully done without loss of balance!

You are so right about "catch-up" arm action being addictive - it really took me a long while to dump it! OK so its a "Horses for courses" business - you certainly wouldn't want to use the continuous arm action for a long-distance swim, although it's great for covering short ones! With this continuous arm action the DPS may go down, and the arm turn-over rate increase - but am sure you will be able to move a bit faster. (Even if it's only for a short while! :lol: ) I think Maglischo was a bit "dismissive" in his tome, of this more continuous style of arm action - but rather that, than the cyclic deceleration as the arm propulsion ceases for a moment, leaving just the leg action to cover the gap.

In my case it all started with a "lightbulb moment" - when I saw a "still" of Phelps demo-ing freestyle. in which his lead arm was already descending to a catch as, or very shortly after, his rear arm started recovery!

As for your comment : "I tell myself that I am swimming in treacle and any hesitation in the stroke will be fatal." It brought back memories of my first swim after recuperating from heart surgery in 2010. I felt so weak after a 3-4 month lay-off, but thrilled to get back in the swim again - but oh how it felt like swimming through treacle! Happily I soon got back into better form.

Bye / Don

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nightcrawler
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:29 pm

Hi Don,
Thanks for the comments, very nice determinations, the below two remarks may be the summary of swimming IMHO:
- "horses for courses"
- "lightbulb moment"

It is important to choose suitable(decent) technique for our unique DNAs of us because everyone has different skills, physiological, psychological, mental capabilities. Hence, swimming is completely a "horses for courses business"!

Catchup is the starting point of rebuilding the technique finding the right timing, improving the coordination and balance.

In line with our fitness level progression, catchup timing can be changed to FQS, finding that sweet spot is called "lightbulb moment"!
---------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Cottmiler,
Check these out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ysuAlwGifc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPRs-CXf2ao


Swim to Fun,
Emrah
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

smootharnie
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby smootharnie » Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:52 pm

I thought you wanted to get a punchy long distance high ref stroke style?
Thats not olympic max speed swimming. Thats furher away from catchup.
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nightcrawler
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:01 pm

See high stroke rate, punchy, 6bk, catchup timing oriented long distance swim style:
https://youtu.be/8Zl5wOCWv54
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

smootharnie
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby smootharnie » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:07 pm

Does he use a non kick 2BK?
I thought you leaned more to the Gianniotis style than the Ferry Weertman , Alex Meyer, Dan Bullock style.
Weertman uses more than a non kick 2BK if he wants to go fast with his catchup style.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQY6EoYVRxs
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:14 pm

Well smootharnie,
Technique is needed to be changed if you make plauteau. I can swim in both techniques 2bk , 6bk, 4bk also and can mix them with catchup, noncatchup timings, this means over 100 variations, try each for at least 3 months and pick up the right one after 10 years of training, then when that technique gets old again try each again and pick up another. You cant write rigit prescription for a person, because as he develops or as he stays in a plateau, technique should be changed in order to stimulate improvement. Share your videos and workouts, if you want help for finding the truth for yourself, people will surely give beneficial advices accordingly. Bye, NC.
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby woody » Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:34 pm

nightcrawler wrote:Technique is needed to be changed if you make plauteau. NC.


At a much lower level of swimming than you Nightcrawler I have reached a plateau several times and each time taken a break to look at my swimming from a different direction.
My journey has been TI , local coaches, Swimsmooth, TI second visit, Ocean walker ,Swimsmooth and Ocean Walker.
Each time I explored another stroke with an open mind I move forward more.(as long as I put 3 months work into it as you say!) It would have confused me at first but now I see they each have something that helps me swim better something that I have missed previously.

Not that I expect anyone of them sees the good bits in the other. They mainly seem to be critical of each other and don't see the bits that crossover or switch the lightbulb on in a swimmer.
TI gave me a start, local coach exhausted me!, Swimsmooth got my swim fitness up , breathing better and into open water, TI then got my balance better, Ocean Walker got my core doing the work explaining in a way that others hadn't been able to get through to me.Attending a swim smooth Squad keeps my fitness up and swimming with others makes me work harder.
Thanks for all the videos you've posted recently there were some great ones.
Woody
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