Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

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nightcrawler
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Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:04 am

Dear Folks,

Today I started the workouts for the 2017 season. This season I will again apply the USRPT format in my workouts. Actually I am not applying pure USRPT, modify it according to my mood before the session(i.e using some equipments like fins, paddles or ankle band or pullbuoy, or shorten the rest period from 15-20 secs to 5-10 secs.

This season I have the intention of trying more challenging paces in comparison to previous year and also maintaining 25K weekly volume.

Last week we were in Marmaris Aquamasters Races, my students invited my to 4x500m relay race in open wateri I was not in form but went for having fun... Adam Walker was the guest of the race, he gave seminars also compted in the races. By the way, I competed with Adam Walker in the relays :)) He is a good guy and very kind but I am not a supporter of the TI or OceanWalker technique. I support Paul's ape index principle which is constructed on mathematics and physiology:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVvid0PkYSY&feature=youtu.be

I attached some photages below... Also you may take a look at the facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/AQUAMASTERS-Spor-Organizasyon-779217565497685/

Lets come to the today's workout:
11.10.2016 (SCM Pool - Total: 3700 meters)
Set1: 20x75m crawl, with fins, Int:75" (avg:64", best:62")
Rcvr: 300 unco drill
Set2: 20x50m crawl, Int:50" (avg:43", best:41")
Rcvr: 400 one arm drill (one arm extended forward, 25m right arm + 25m left arm)
Set3: 20x75m crawl with paddles and ankle band, Int:25" (avg:20", best:19")
Notes for the session: My paces slowed down due to lack of training in the few months but I felt comfortable during all the sets, hope soon get into the form again.
Attachments
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49ca9fbe-7c17-448b-ad05-4f3b71efea85.jpg (154.82 KiB) Viewed 3582 times
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474e8ba2-5318-4e18-9953-cd94bf06052a.jpg (177.01 KiB) Viewed 3582 times
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

smootharnie
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby smootharnie » Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:12 am

How tall is the Ocean Walker anyway? seems like a giant next to the others.
You hardly ever see short wide people swim well on the ocean walker technique. Whats the difference with TI and his style and what is your main objectiove against it ?

No smoking in 2017? ;)
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:29 am

smootharnie wrote:How tall is the Ocean Walker anyway? seems like a giant next to the others.
You hardly ever see short wide people swim well on the ocean walker technique. Whats the difference with TI and his style and what is your main objectiove against it ?

No smoking in 2017? ;)


Hi smootharnie,

Yeah, my mission is "no smoking in 2017" :)))

Adam is 196cm tall. He is actually using TI but added navigational-head-ups to TI for open water. Well his two goggles are out of the water, maybe that's a difference :-) :-)
Here is the youtube footage of Ocean Walker and his stroke. It is very similar to the TI stroke. However he is clearly a very skilled swimmer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZiNsiOPEsM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz1q6Ste9as
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8yk2CVtpRc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV28Sj2H4Bg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXsuH0SoOL4
Adam is a good friend of TI and I believe took a workshop from Coach Tracey Baumann in UK sometime back when experiencing shoulder and biceps problems, before the Ocean Seven.

But when come to the conclusion; TI or similars can not be competitive swimming techniques, this is called "sport economy" which is ideal for rehabilitation and fitness.
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

s.sciame
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby s.sciame » Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:01 am

nightcrawler wrote:
Last week we were in Marmaris Aquamasters Races, my students invited my to 4x500m relay race in open wateri I was not in form but went for having fun... Adam Walker was the guest of the race, he gave seminars also compted in the races. By the way, I competed with Adam Walker in the relays :))



Welcome back NC! Always nice to hear fresh news from you. By the way, how fast Adam Walker was??

@Smootharnie: one (rare) example of short wide man swimming well with ocean walker / TI technique is TI coach Jai Evans: he's really short (about 1.5m) and recently swam the English Channel at around 60SPM in about 13 hours (pretty respectable time for the EC).

Cheers,
Salvo
Other SS forum members and I are also on swim.palstani.com

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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:52 am

s.sciame wrote:
nightcrawler wrote:
Last week we were in Marmaris Aquamasters Races, my students invited my to 4x500m relay race in open wateri I was not in form but went for having fun... Adam Walker was the guest of the race, he gave seminars also compted in the races. By the way, I competed with Adam Walker in the relays :))



Welcome back NC! Always nice to hear fresh news from you. By the way, how fast Adam Walker was??

@Smootharnie: one (rare) example of short wide man swimming well with ocean walker / TI technique is TI coach Jai Evans: he's really short (about 1.5m) and recently swam the English Channel at around 60SPM in about 13 hours (pretty respectable time for the EC).

Cheers,
Salvo


Hi Salvo,
Adam's pace is around 1:05/100m in a marathon, quite good for his age!!!
Stroke frequency is depending on ape index not the height of the swimmer. Jai Evans may have a respectable ape index, please sheck it out if possible, i am also wondering. A good example for this is Trent Grimsey who swam the British Channel with a world record by using 85-90 strokes per minute:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fK7Jq8-ZJI
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

s.sciame
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby s.sciame » Tue Oct 11, 2016 2:39 pm

nightcrawler wrote:Jai Evans may have a respectable ape index, please sheck it out if possible, i am also wondering.


Here is Jai Evans (the short guy in the middle). Don't know his ape index but I doubt his wing span is much longer than his height (155 cm).

And here is Jai in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LazYV0Ox72s

I find it really impressive how he can hit 16SPL at tempo 0.97 given his height and wing span.

Salvo
Other SS forum members and I are also on swim.palstani.com

smootharnie
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby smootharnie » Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:19 pm

I thought his openwaterswimstroke is more uptempo and shorter than the stuff he shows here in the pool.
Starts to look tense when he swims fast at a low stroke count, and I am pretty sure he cant keep that speed up at that strokecount for long. It looks artificially low.
This is how he swims when he is tired
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPEBVqJ ... e=youtu.be

I like Oceanwalkers stroke. He lies very nicely in the water an is a smooth effective mover. Makes the most of the TI stroke as is possible.
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:50 am

12.10.2016 (SCM Pool - Total: 2800 meters)
Set#1: 10x75m crawl, with fins + paddles, Int:75" (avg:63", best:61")
Set#1: 10x75 crawl, with paddles, int:75" (avg:63, best 60")
Rcvr: 300 complex (25 butterfly, 25 backstroke, 25 breastroke)
Set#2: 20x50m crawl with paddles, Int:50" (avg:41", best:39")
Notes for the session: It is strange that with the same stroke rate fins do not contribute to my pace, tested it in Set#1, from today on I am packing and laying the fins aside.
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

smootharnie
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby smootharnie » Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:41 am

its very strange that you are not faster with the fins at the same strokerate.
Do you use a 2BK with the fins? If I use a 6Bk with fins the strokerate drops a lot. The arms are waiting for the legs to finsih the kicks in that case, or the legs have to hurry to get all those kicks in between the arms entries.
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:58 am

smootharnie wrote:its very strange that you are not faster with the fins at the same strokerate.
Do you use a 2BK with the fins? If I use a 6Bk with fins the strokerate drops a lot. The arms are waiting for the legs to finsih the kicks in that case, or the legs have to hurry to get all those kicks in between the arms entries.


i am using 6bk with the fins, it makes no sense
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

The Dodo
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby The Dodo » Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:59 am

Hi "smootharnie"!

You're usually a whizz at locating interesting clips - have you found any of Ocean Walker's UW action in a pool? We can't really deduce a lot from the AW/OW clips - just arm style recoveries, head position during inhalations, etc!

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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:13 am

His some photages(but not in detaily shown, UW technique cannot be seen):
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-28676161
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eondt7gMfo4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGCtPPOW9mM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWggC1wAVP8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iBnNVGN80w

He is a good guy, very inspirational and positive thinking. But I am not supporting his technique in terms of marathon swimming, high stroke rate habit, which tolerates the pauses, dead spots, technical disorders, always works in distance swims if you get used to it in the workouts. Even the olympic gold medallists like Janet Evans, Gregorio Paltrinieri, Katie Ledecky, Alexander Popov are swimming with very high stroke rates in comparison to Adam. I support kayaking and high cadancefull technique like Shelly Taylor Smith's, Mel Benson's, Jolie Swallow's, Paul Newsome's. But Adam's clear British accent is sounding good for me, in his background he was a salesman which gave him vocal talent in his presentations :D

In terms of OW swimming, Australian, Spanish, Italian and Russian fashions are more close to me.

Note: By the way, I used to master and swim the TI technique for many years, it was a loss of time for me, couldnt gain any speed, TI can be good for beginners to develop the understanding of water(ie balance, rotation, economy) or grandmamas and grandpapas for rehabilitation.
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

s.sciame
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby s.sciame » Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:15 pm

nightcrawler wrote:It is strange that with the same stroke rate fins do not contribute to my pace


Slower turns maybe? Personally I cannot pushoff to my best when using fins. Also, you said same stroke rate, and what about stroke count? If, as expected, you took less strokes per length with fins (and kept the same stroke rate) you must have swam faster, so you also must have turned slower.

By the way: why are you doing these sets with fins?

Salvo
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:34 pm

s.sciame wrote:
nightcrawler wrote:It is strange that with the same stroke rate fins do not contribute to my pace


Slower turns maybe? Personally I cannot pushoff to my best when using fins. Also, you said same stroke rate, and what about stroke count? If, as expected, you took less strokes per length with fins (and kept the same stroke rate) you must have swam faster, so you also must have turned slower.

By the way: why are you doing these sets with fins?

Salvo


Turns are with the same agility, stroke count per lap is the same with and without fins. Such being the beginning of the season, I m trying fins, paddles, bands etc to find the sweet spot in my stroke.
-------------------------------------------

Today i did also an evening session after the work, the 2nd workout of the day:

12.10.2016 (LCM Pool - Total: 1900 meters)
Set#1: 10x50m crawl, with paddles, Int:50" (avg:39", best:38")
Rcvr: 200 m kicking
Set#2: 10x50m crawl, with paddles+ankle bands Int:60" (avg:39", best 37")
Rcvr: 200 kicking
Set#3: 10x50m crawl Int:60" (avg:38", best:33")

Notes for the session: I swam with Turkish 400 m free masters 40-45 age group's record holder, he gave me pace, but again it is strange that there is almost no difference between swimming with bands, with paddles and without equipment.
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:40 am

13.10.2016 (SCM Pool - Total: 3300m)
Set1: 20x50m crawl, Int:50" (avg:41", best:39")
Rcvr: 20x50m punco drill, Int:60" (avg:48", best:45")
Rcvr: 10x25m 6-1-6 drill, Int:40" (avg:28", best:26")
Set2: 16x25m crawl, with paddles, Int:25" (avg:18", best:17")
Rcvr: 10x25m unco drill, Int:40" (avg:28", best:27")
Set3: 16x25m crawl, Int:25" (avg:18", best:17")

Notes for the session: This morning I swam with my student, he is 28 years old guy, swimming with high stroke rate and very energetic, but slower than me. After the yesterday's double sessions I couldnt have recovered well enough, hardly woke up and felt tired during the sets. So that, put extra recovery events including some drills to help me develop the basement at the outset of the season. today afternoon if I feel recovered, I am intending to go to the pool again :)
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

smootharnie
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby smootharnie » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:55 am

You are getting old Nightcrawler!

Cant find underwater footage of the Oceanwalker.
Curious how late his late catchtechnique to save the shoulders looked uderwater.
Seems he has relative much pressure late in the stroke where he surges forward.
His flat swim example looks like a good SS example.
Some pëople just prefer a lower turnover rate, swimming in a higher gear.

Reminds me of a girl I could hardly keep up with during inline skating. She had almost double the strokerate as myself and looked as she was about to selfdistruct at any moment, but pfff, damn, I was getting tired trying to keep up.
After 10 minutes i had to let go and she just continued with her fast scrappy stroke...
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:52 am

smootharnie wrote:You are getting old Nightcrawler!

Cant find underwater footage of the Oceanwalker.
Curious how late his late catchtechnique to save the shoulders looked uderwater.
Seems he has relative much pressure late in the stroke where he surges forward.
His flat swim example looks like a good SS example.
Some pëople just prefer a lower turnover rate, swimming in a higher gear.

Reminds me of a girl I could hardly keep up with during inline skating. She had almost double the strokerate as myself and looked as she was about to selfdistruct at any moment, but pfff, damn, I was getting tired trying to keep up.
After 10 minutes i had to let go and she just continued with her fast scrappy stroke...


Yeah, this year competing in 40-45 age group, older the sweeter :)

I couldnt find any UW footage of him. But in the seminar he showed some training parts from his archive, he is generally doing side-kick, 6-1-6 drills, but doing these in TI manner(i.e immersing the hand 30-40cm down then pulling with 80-90 degrees hip rotation. For me hip rotations over 40 degrees are waste of time, adding pause to the stroke; so I dont support. Watch the useful instructive video by the Aussie guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMpHulcTiQQ
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

smootharnie
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby smootharnie » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:16 pm

Ha, ha :) showed that video numerous time on the TI forum when there was someone with overrotation again there.
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:24 pm

13.10.2016 (LCM Pool - Total: 1900 meters)
Rcvr: 200 complex
Set#1: 12x75m easy complex, with paddles, Int:90"
Set#2: 20x25m easy crawl Int:30"
Rcvr: 300 crawl one arm drill

Notes: In the evening session, swam with my student Vural Tandogan who crossed the British and Gibraltar channels this summer, obeyed his paces, relaxed well and concentrated on my technique.
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:48 am

14.10.2016 (SCM Pool - Morning Session - Total: 3200 meters)
Rcvr: 400m complex
Set#1: 100x25m easy crawl Int:25"(avg: 19", best 16")
Rcvr: 300m complex
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion


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