Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

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The Dodo
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby The Dodo » Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:55 pm

Surprised by your comment on time. In order to dig out some stuff about "pulling back to the thighs in breast stroke" (re "Swimmingly"'s recent thread) I looked at the "Combat Side Stroke" proficiency test for US Navy Seals - I saw that they are expected to swim 500 yards in less than 10 minutes using that stroke - so that's "going some" for a non-freestyle stroke! (Think that works out at less than 33 secs/25m pool length)

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Mike A
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby Mike A » Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:26 pm

Yep, that would be about 33s per 100m. That's a big difference from 9 minutes per 500, which works out at 27s per 100m. Pretty confident I could pass the sidestroke test.

I can't say I've done a "maximum effort" 500m, as my focus is really longer distances - currently, I typically do 4 sets of 500m with 20-30s recovery break in between. Last swim, the first 500m was 9:10, the last was almost 10 minutes(!)

To hold 9min per 500m for a 4x500m session, you would probably need to be capable of 1500m in not much more than 27 minutes. I know that's nothing to a decent club swimmer, but it's beyond my current ability - I think my quickest ever 1500 was about 27:30, and that was in a wetsuit.

In fact the only reason I swim 500m sets at all is because I can set off on the heels of the quickest guy in my lane, and then let him pass after 20 lengths, just before he laps me! :lol:
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nightcrawler
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:01 pm

Mike A wrote:
nightcrawler wrote:Sorry, I wrote it wrong, in the competition our times were 6:40 and 6:45.

Oh good, that makes me feel slightly less inadequate - as I work towards getting my 500m time below 9:00. :lol:


:D :D :D :D
Check SharkFM's ex post, he explained very well, it may help you to swim faster, but needs patience, consistency and discipline:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKKry7F ... e=youtu.be
I believe that you can achive.
Good luck Mike.
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

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Mike A
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby Mike A » Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:04 pm

Just remembered, the other thing that makes my 500s a bit slower is that I breathe bilaterally every other 100m. This slows me down a fair bit because I'm rubbish at breathing to my right - just can't do it without messing up my streamline.

The difference isn't always as extreme as this example (guess which are the bilateral 100s!).

third set.png
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nightcrawler
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:50 pm

Hey Mike,
Train 15 km a week with catchup pattern (SharkFM's explanation is very nice), try a ladder:
5x100
4x200
3x300
2x400
1x500
----------
3500m total
use fins+paddles and tempo trainer, do this for a month, then you will swim 500m sub 8 min.
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby woody » Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:58 pm

Hi Mike
Which watch are you using for the info on your graph? I use a Garmin 920xt but don't get graphs like that with 100m splits in.The 10x400 I've been doing lately are starting to be straight lines which I like each one same pace.
I still breathe to one side but alternate sides each length. The drill that sorted me was double arm ( bit like 616). Swim on side one arm out front the other performs a stroke without rotating , take next stroke same arm but this time rotate ( at this point I take a breath). Head back in so you are now on the other side arm in front, take a stroke no rotation, take second stroke rotatating and breath then head back in and you are back to starting point.
The non rotating strokes gives you time to think and very quickly got my alignment on my poor side sorted. In one session !
No amount of bubble bubble breathe helped as it wasn't a breathing problem . I was simply in rubbish position on my poor side hence using up my air as I compensated by using more force to overcome my extremely poor alignment.
Woody
Last edited by woody on Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby woody » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:04 pm

I'll give that a go too NC

What mode do I use the tempo trainer , strokes per min or time per length?

Should the whole month be with fins and paddles ? It feels a bit like cheating .
Cheers Woody
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:33 am

woody wrote:I'll give that a go too NC

What mode do I use the tempo trainer , strokes per min or time per length?

Should the whole month be with fins and paddles ? It feels a bit like cheating .
Cheers Woody


Hi Mike and Woody, Smootharnie, Salvo, Cottmiler;

First of all, thanks for your attention and patience for reading, I am trying my best to express myself with my poor English.

If you wanna participate a race(even a non-professional public race) with your own dailly car then you must have at least 2000 turbo engine car with enpowered accoutrements in comparison to the other cars...

We all are missing some points, the reasons that dont let us swim faster are:
1) Lack of proper stoke mechanics
4) Lack of flexibility(shoulders, toes, neck, ankle, elbows)
2) Lack of hydrodynamical physical shape
3) Lack of muscular power
5) Lack of coordination and timing(legs, hips, toes, elbows, breathing)
6) Lack of condition(respiratory and cardio system)

Catchup timing contributes to all these aspects of swimming. At the outset I think that using fins and paddles will be beneficial for feeling the water more and make it easier to get used to the timing without getting exhausted. After a couple of weeks you can take off the instruments in some sets, thus progressively get used to swim without those toys.

I believe that with patience and systematical workout pattern you will soon be better swimmers. Share your progressions, I am gonna look forward to read. Take care...

Cheers for beers, :D
Emrah

--------------------------------------------------------

18.11.2016 - SCM - Morning Session - 4000m

Set#1: 8x100m freestyle, int:01:45 (avg:01:27)

Rcvry: 200 freestyle 6-1-6 drill

Set#2: 12x75m freestyle, int:01:20 (avg:01:05)

Rcvry: 200 freestyle 6-1-6 drill

Set#3: 3x{
100m freestyle kick with kickboard
100m freestyle swim with bands
100m freestyle swim
100m freestyle swim with paddles
}
(total time: 21:12, net time~ 21:10-(11*5) = 20:15)
no rest among the repetitions, lost apprx.5 secs for each transition

Rcvry: 200 freestyle 6-1-6 drill

Set#4: 20x25m freestyle, int:00:30 (avg:00:20)

Notes: It was the REVENGE of yersterday's bad session, I did the sets with tighter intervals compared with previous workouts (in 100s 1:45 instead of 2:00, in 75s 1:20 instead of 1:30), in all sets stroke rate was 1.00(60 strokes per minute). In all sets I tried to obey the catchup timing pattern as shown in the below videos. Briefly, today I beated myself, audience at the tribunes were cheering for me, things are getting better, wind started to blow behind me :)))

After the workout, I asked my friend Tolga to take some videos with my new technique, in the videos you may see my all day pace, easy and relaxed now, in the days to come I am gonna try to apply faster stroke rate(0.95 instead of 1.00) by maintaining the same strokes per lap(16 arms per 25m):
https://youtu.be/KxuBVNPhV-o
https://youtu.be/SuE8KQPuG-c
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

cottmiler
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby cottmiler » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:25 am

NC gunaydin!

Have you tried Fist Drill with Ankle Band with naturally your favourite Catch - Up timing?

I've been trying to stamp out catch-up recently but the brain is recalcritant (having an obstinately uncooperative attitude towards authority or discipline).

When we run along the road, we don't use catch-up.

With Spiderman Crawl - yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K7rv_vFOWM
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nightcrawler
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:42 am

cottmiler wrote:NC gunaydin!

Have you tried Fist Drill with Ankle Band with naturally your favourite Catch - Up timing?

I've been trying to stamp out catch-up recently but the brain is recalcritant (having an obstinately uncooperative attitude towards authority or discipline).

When we run along the road, we don't use catch-up.

With Spiderman Crawl - yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K7rv_vFOWM


Hi Cottmiler,
One thing must be understood. I am not a supporter of and not gonna use catchup timing in the races, I am training now to develop the core(main) aspects such as distance per stroke, kick timing, body rotation, high elbow catch... using the catchup as a pattern. Normal swimming of course will be faster than the catchup, I am gonna slightly turn to front quadrant timing according to my progression, nothing is special except you know. In the below video Asian TI guy talks about stroke timing, but while watching the video dont consider that "should I swim TI?", take its useful part, he is saying something very beneficial which refers to front quadrant timing - not fully catchup, hands replace when recovering arm between head and water - before the entry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS_3Hg_hezg
Regards,
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

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Mike A
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby Mike A » Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:03 pm

woody wrote:Hi Mike
Which watch are you using for the info on your graph?

Hi Woody, the data is off my Poolmate Live, but I'm pulling it into a little Java application I wrote myself to summarise in 100m sections. I always meant to do more with this program, but unfortunately I've never found time to develop it properly. I would like to add features for comparing different sets and for grouping and comparing various sections within sets - because I tend to try variations like that, e.g. alternating breathing patterns every 100m within a longer set. Maybe one day...

Cheers,
Mike
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Mike A
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby Mike A » Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:06 pm

woody wrote:The drill that sorted me was double arm ( bit like 616).

That looks like a good drill - I will give it a go. I sometimes do a single arm like that, but breathing every stroke. I tend to need a lot of air because I overkick on those drills - would be helpful if my pool allowed fins, but it doesn't.
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s.sciame
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby s.sciame » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:24 pm

nightcrawler wrote:I believe that with patience and systematical workout pattern you will soon be better swimmers. Share your progressions, I am gonna look forward to read. Take care...



Hey NC, today I got inspired by your sessions:

warmup:
300m easy
300m drills/swim

Set #1: 20x75m on :80 target pace 22.25s/length (measured with TT) or :66.75. Succeeded at 19-21SPL (estimated stroke rate btw 64 and 70SPM)
Recovery: 200m bk

Set #2: 20x50m on :55 target pace 22.25s/length or :44.5. Succeeded at 19-21SPL. This set felt easier than the previous one.
Recovery: 100m bk

Set #3: 10x25m (had to be 20x25 but it was too late) with snorkel and TT at 67SPM/20SPL, resting 9 beeps (8s). Succeeded.
Recovery: 100m mixed

Notes: I'm currently trying to develop stroke rate while not exceeding 20SPL.

Cheers,
Salvo
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nightcrawler
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:35 pm

woow happy to hear that, try to come last 3 rep of each set faster, this will trigger next session.
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

s.sciame
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby s.sciame » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:48 pm

Ok, thanks!!
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nightcrawler
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:04 am

19.11.2016 - LCM - Evening Session - 3000m
2x{
6x100m freestyle, fins+paddles, int:01:45
10x50m freestyle, fins+paddles, int:00:55
16x25m freestyle, fins+paddles, int:00:30
}

Notes: All are with 60 strokes per minute by focusing on 6bk and catchup timing.
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

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nightcrawler
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:13 pm

20.11.2016 - Swimming Lesson

Hi all,
Today evening my friend and I had a lesson with Serkan Atasay(previous Ukranian national team swimmer, now Turkish national team swimmer). We had 1.5 hours dry land workout including agility, mobility, flexibility, high elbow catch and pull routines, push routines, rotation exercises, jumps, etc. These type of exercises i havent been doing since 1998, it was so hard for me with 6+ kilos belly fats. Then we got into the pool, swam 1.5 hours... Serkan directly warned me about my hand entry and lack of high elbow recovery and non effective stroke timing. He gave 25m repetitions and during each interval he told us our mistakes. At the outset i was swimming with 15 arms per 25m, after i tried to do his recommendations my SPL became 10 per 25m. He said that it was still high, it should be 6-7 per 25m. Then he jumped into the pool showed us how to swim the 100m 59 seconds with 12 strokes(6 arms for each 25m) by using proper stroke timing. Actually he was using the right arm timing.

According to him, my mistakes are:
- Harsh hand exit, hand should exit more elegantly from the water.
- Lack of high elbow recovery and so that dropping elbow while pulling.
- Wrong stroke timing, he says that i shouldnt use catchup timing, where as i should count 1-2-3-4 after hand exits and drives to head level then accelerate to hand entry with the recovery arm and push with the inside arm, but this entry and push shouldnt be harsh as i do.

After freestyle sets we did butterfly sets with the fins. Again he focused on my hand entry and recovery...

I asked him for homework and drills to correct, he said adviced me just to pay attention/remember his remarks while swimming, added that for such mistakes drills wouldnt be helpful. This week our homework is lots of 25 meters by achieving 6-7 strokes, then maintaining this efficiency at 50m, 100-200-400m.

Next week we will continue our lesson.
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

smootharnie
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby smootharnie » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:11 am

well, I wasnt so wrong after all ;)

Didn understand this completely
i should count 1-2-3-4 after hand exits and drives to head level then accelerate to hand entry with the recovery arm and push with the inside arm, but this entry and push shouldnt be harsh as i do.

Sounds all as going for a a classical long smooth stroke style from reading the tips.
Are you faster now?
Footage of your latest `right` style?

What do you think about shoulder roll on top of hip roll? Say 50 % roll of the shoulder angle on top of 100% hip roll angle.
I think its very important for certain people (beside sprinters) who are not very kick dominant. Without upperbody plus shoulder roll you are losing a lot of range of movement and hip to shoulder power compared to roll as a solid unit which is often advised.
Paltrieniri and Harry Wiltshire as typical examples.
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby woody » Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:55 am

Looks like you had a great lesson NC and must be looking forward to next week.
woody
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Re: Nightcrawler's 2017 Season

Postby nightcrawler » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:01 am

smootharnie wrote:well, I wasnt so wrong after all ;)

Didn understand this completely
i should count 1-2-3-4 after hand exits and drives to head level then accelerate to hand entry with the recovery arm and push with the inside arm, but this entry and push shouldnt be harsh as i do.

Answer: I recovery must be slower than I am doing. I should count till 4 while bringing the recovery arm with high elbow from exit to head level then it can be a little bit faster but not as fast as I do.

Sounds all as going for a a classical long smooth stroke style from reading the tips.
Are you faster now?
Footage of your latest `right` style?

Answer: It is not a magic stick, "needs months to correct" he says, quite right!

What do you think about shoulder roll on top of hip roll? Say 50 % roll of the shoulder angle on top of 100% hip roll angle.
I think its very important for certain people (beside sprinters) who are not very kick dominant.

Answer: I didnt understand compeletely what you mean.

Without upperbody plus shoulder roll you are losing a lot of range of movement and hip to shoulder power compared to roll as a solid unit which is often advised. Paltrieniri and Harry Wiltshire as typical examples.

Answer: Serkan says that 2bk is essential in distance swimming, he liked my 2bk but recommended me that I should both work 6bk in the trainings in order to break out in the last 500m of a marathon race. He is also saying that we should do 2 dolphin kicks after the turns for developing a nice posture(stronger spinal and ab muscles which supports the good balance in the water). He offered us to add butterfly sets in our training routines, this may help to develop freestyle pace by providing a good body position and stronger shoulders

Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion


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