for ow swimmers and Red Mist fans

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s.sciame
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Re: for ow swimmers and Red Mist fans

Postby s.sciame » Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:22 pm

Adivio wrote:
What shall I do next time? Try to swim one more round or increase the pace? This is the question.

Adrian


What about removing the kick pants? :)

After that, my interpretation of Gerry is that this is an endurance set and, in the original formula, it consists of 8 rounds and 6k. So if I were you I'd go for one more round. Stopping at 3k with faster pace sounds more like a css set than an endurance set.

I repeated the set again and liked it very much. I think I'll alternate it with the classic (10x400m) Red Mist set on endurance days. Gerry's one is more fun and it spans over a wider range of gears. But on the other hand I don't wanna ditch the classic Red Mist because it's mentally tougher, it seems to be designed to forge warrior minds.

Repetition could be boring but (look at rule #21 below)...

http://joelfilliol.blogspot.it/2012/01/ ... is-is.html

Salvo
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Adivio
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Re: for ow swimmers and Red Mist fans

Postby Adivio » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:33 pm

I'll keep those pants on, thank you :).

And since you mentioned it, I really like the kick pants. They actually allowed me
to discover a few improvements which I could carry to "normal" swimming:
- since it is easier to kick, I have started to be aware of the hands to legs connection.
I can now feel it when the front and end are in sync.
- 6kb has become less erratic
- they give me the confidence to push hard to last repeats of a hard set
- I don't overheat in them

At the moment I am only interested in OW events, thus using the pants is very much
specific training for me.

As for the set, I'll take your advice and add one more round next time. Lets see how it
goes. And thanks again for posting it here. It is hard but time just flies since there is so
much variation in it.

Adrian
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s.sciame
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Re: for ow swimmers and Red Mist fans

Postby s.sciame » Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:20 pm

Adivio wrote:They actually allowed me
to discover a few improvements which I could carry to "normal" swimming:
- since it is easier to kick, I have started to be aware of the hands to legs connection.
I can now feel it when the front and end are in sync.
- 6kb has become less erratic


That's interesting, I never swam with a wetsuit or kick pants so I really don't know how it feels. What do you mean by less erratic? Do the pants aid in keeping the leg straighter? Do they have a sort of spring effect which helps holding a constant rhythm? Last but not least: how does it feel if you take them off and swim without? Do you have that bad sinky legs feeling that sometimes happens right after some pull buoy swimming? Personally I always stay away from pull buoys because I hate that feeling...

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Adivio
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Re: for ow swimmers and Red Mist fans

Postby Adivio » Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:15 pm

Yes, the pants have some hardened pads on top of knees and this prevents too much bending.
But basically it is easier to kick with these pants than without. Legs feel very light even during hard kicking. This lightness
makes it easier for me to get the 1-2-3, 1-2-3 rhythm for each hand. And then at some point I noticed how nicely I can slip
through water if the 1-2-3 starts exactly when same side hand is pulling. It's like screwing yourself into the water.

There is huge difference between kick pants and pull-buoy. The pants allow full body swimming whereas with pull-buoy legs are more or less
motionless. I don't actually like to swim with the pull-buoy.

And there is big difference between the pants and full wet-suite. Wet-suite is removing some of the feeling due to upper body being tightly covered by the suite but
nothing like this when swimming with pants. My plan is to use them also for OW next summer. But lets see.

So far I have not mixed swimming with and without in the same session so I didn't get to notice the difference. In the days I swim without, the only
difference I am aware of is the clock :).

Adrian
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Shenaram
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Re: for ow swimmers and Red Mist fans

Postby Shenaram » Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:53 pm

s.sciame wrote:
Adivio wrote:What shall I do next time? Try to swim one more round or increase the pace? This is the question.
Adrian

What about removing the kick pants? :)


In case you do remove the kick pants, please do not forget to wear on another jammer... :shock:

Adivio
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Re: for ow swimmers and Red Mist fans

Postby Adivio » Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:05 pm

Good point, will try to remember :)
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Adivio
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Re: for ow swimmers and Red Mist fans

Postby Adivio » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:54 am

Today it's Friday and this means another of Salvo's swimming set.

Same setup as before, unfortunately today couldn't go further than round 5 and
I missed the beep heavily on the last 500m. My excuse is that I had a hard gym session on Wed evening
and I was still recovering from it. I could still feel the pain in my muscles.
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s.sciame
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Re: for ow swimmers and Red Mist fans

Postby s.sciame » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:36 am

Hi Adrian, it's great to do these hard sets on friday and then have your deserved rest while reading the Feel For The Water newsletter ;) No problem for missing the beep today, just recover well and you'll beat it the next week!

This week I had a great 10x400m Red Mist, so the next week I'll try Gerry's set committing to 1s/100m faster on the IM reps (and 6 rounds).

Good swimming!
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Adivio
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Re: for ow swimmers and Red Mist fans

Postby Adivio » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:49 am

Thanks Salvo for the encouragement. It actually feels bad when I miss the beep. And of course super great when staying with it :). Congrats for your red most set. You are a strong swimmer!

For me Friday is just the warm up. Saturday I have the long run and swimming then on Sunday the long cycling, gym and swimming. Monday is my rest day. :).

Adrian
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s.sciame
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Re: for ow swimmers and Red Mist fans

Postby s.sciame » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:34 pm

Adivio wrote:For me Friday is just the warm up. Saturday I have the long run and swimming then on Sunday the long cycling, gym and swimming. Monday is my rest day. :).

Adrian


Wow, busy schedule!

Today I repeated Gerry's set 1s faster: 7 rounds at steady 1:39/100m on IM reps and 1:29-1:30 on fast reps. Another thing that I like of this set is that, in order to succeed, you have to really recover during the easy 100's. Easier said than done. Not only you have to recover breath and heart rate while swimming, but also stretch well (especially between a fast 100 and the last 700!) and refocus. The set promotes getting the most from those precious easy 100's, it's a skill imho.

Salvo
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Adivio
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Re: for ow swimmers and Red Mist fans

Postby Adivio » Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:26 pm

Well done Salvo,
Getting to round 7 with increased speed at the same time is not easy!

As it is customary on Fridays, I did another Salvo's set today. This time did 6 rounds and remained behind the beep only in the middle of the last 600 IM.
Progress :).

2 important things happened this week in my swimming: firstly, I think I have discovered the full body swimming Ducky has talked so much about.
It came naturally to me during some very hard sets allowing me to keep the pace even though it would have usually been the moment to let go :).
What I started to do is to just kick hard and throw myself on the opposite side forward, in the same time just thrusting the hand into the water. The core
felt engaged, connecting the lower and the upper parts. There was nothing smooth about this with lots of splashed water but somehow managed to maintain
the speed for 1000s of meters.

The other thing was that I finally realized how to avoid the straight arm pull. It was as simple as bending the elbow. I have tried this before but I have always thought that bending the elbow would just put my hands in classical karate stance :). During training we had camera installed underwater at the end of the lane and TV showing delayed footage at the other end so I could then check what was "really" happening when elbow was bent and it looked really good :).

Adrian
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Sprinter
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Re: for ow swimmers and Red Mist fans

Postby Sprinter » Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:30 pm

Adivio wrote:What I started to do is to just kick hard and throw myself on the opposite side forward, in the same time just thrusting the hand into the water. The core
felt engaged, connecting the lower and the upper parts.


This sounds potentially "dangerous" to me, similar to a mistake I did for a long time: I see the potential for a much too large kick, potentially a scissor kick.
This can work for slower speeds, but will eventually stop progress.

The trigger for me is the remark on the "core felt engaged": the far too big leg actions, combined often with over-rotation, indeed engages the core, but in a wasteful way.

It took me a long time to figure out this problem, and to engage the core in a more productive way. I had this large kick etc., and whenever I tried to do something about it, I got slower, and it felt awkward: one reason seems to be, that through that big action I got the core engagement automatically, and as soon as I stopped the big action, I also lost the core engagement! So you get something by the big action, but it's a trap. The "cork screwing" connects the hands and the feet, but at a high cost.

Don't know about your case, but it sounds like that.

Perhaps you also have the problem of not engaging the core (enough), and you "solve" this problem via this trick, and indeed get faster -- but at the expense of ingraining another problem.

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Re: for ow swimmers and Red Mist fans

Postby woody » Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:52 pm

I will be giving this a go soon having done the Red mist set for last couple of months .
I find changing the beeper disturbs my concentration so when I moved from 10x 300s to 400's a few weeks ago I just set it at CSS plus 4 and then dropped it a second per 100 each week . I had to repeat a couple of weeks till I made the beep on the 10th.
To those that do this set what time do you set the beeper to for the IM swims in relation to your Red mist times? I can see that if I use my last Red Mist time the first five or maybe six rounds should in theory be ok but not a piece of cake as with only 10 secs rest compared to the 1 beep in red mist.But after that with 700, 800 swims left would be hard.
I am unsure whether to just use my last Red mist time and possibly get wound up when I get behind in the latter swims or add a couple of secs e.g. CSS plus 6 pace.
Any thoughts appreciated
woody
Everything is won or lost inside your own head.

The best time to learn to swim was a long time ago the second best time is today

s.sciame
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Re: for ow swimmers and Red Mist fans

Postby s.sciame » Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:01 pm

Hi woody,
For 7 rounds I typically swim IM reps at css+5 and fast reps at css-5. Gerry recommends to swim the fast reps FAST, perhaps faster than css-5. He stresses the importance for ow swimmers of being able to change pace frequently w/o blowing.

Salvo
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woody
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Re: for ow swimmers and Red Mist fans

Postby woody » Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:09 pm

Thanks Salvo
That makes sense CSS plus 5 I will try that.

In squad we do endurance at CSS plus 4 to 6 and 10 x100 etc at CSS minus 4 so it's all in the same ballpark.
I will set to plus 5 which for me is 2m07s my redmist were at2m05 last week ( having to have two weeks to hit it I missed by half a length the first week) The fast Ones I will just try to beat the beeper ,the slow one miss it by loads to make up for the low rests.
Thanks
Woody
Everything is won or lost inside your own head.

The best time to learn to swim was a long time ago the second best time is today

Adivio
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Re: for ow swimmers and Red Mist fans

Postby Adivio » Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:29 am

This sounds potentially "dangerous" to me, similar to a mistake I did for a long time: I see the potential for a much too large kick, potentially a scissor kick.
This can work for slower speeds, but will eventually stop progress.


Hi Sprinter,

Thanks for the warning. It is difficult to feel if this is the case or something good is actually going on.
Yesterday we again had camera underwater at one end of the lane and tried to swim with my new style and
it looked Ok in the video. I also asked the coach's opinion and she said that kick was a sprinter's kick, i.e. strong
and perhaps a triathlete should use smaller one. But nothing about scissor kick or over rotation.

Will keep an eye on it anyway.
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Paul Newsome
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Re: for ow swimmers and Red Mist fans

Postby Paul Newsome » Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:23 am

s.sciame wrote:It's a good way to train different gears and change pace frequently (fast reps add more fun!) as one would do during an open water race.


In reality, the only people "changing gears" and pace in any open water race >1500m in length are the PROs:

Rhys.jpg
Rhys.jpg (235.91 KiB) Viewed 2674 times


The majority of us would benefit far more from developing sustainable pace for these longer distance swims, hence the structure of the 10 x 400 as we propose it.

If it's variety you're seeking in these Red Mist sessions, we have 120 listed here https://www.swimsmooth.guru/sequence/HG/red-mist-endurance-sessions/ with new ones being added all the time - take the most recent Virtual Squad Red Mist session, arguably one of our hardest - most most engaging - yet:

https://www.swimsmooth.guru/sequence/cLk/c52/session-45-red-mist-endurance-the-hardest-yet/
2013 Manhattan Island Marathon Swim Champion. Don't forget to check out our valuable Know How section on the main site at http://www.swimsmooth.com/knowhow.html

woody
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Re: for ow swimmers and Red Mist fans

Postby woody » Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:23 am

[quote=" s.sciame " ] One of my favourite sets is the classic SS Red Mist 10x400m descending. Pros: it's a good indicator of current shape, gives confidence and offers plenty of time and laps to focus on technique and assess what works best over distance. Cons: it does not include fast swimming and it may be boring (especially during the first slower reps).

Here is a valid alternative from Gerry Rodrigues (for ow swimmers) which includes fast swimming and maybe it's funnier too:

round 1: 100 easy, 100 IronMan effort, 100 easy, 100 fast
round 2: 100 easy, 200 IM effort, 100 easy, 100 fast
round 3: 100 easy, 300 IM effort, 100 easy, 100 fast
...
round 6: 100 easy, 600 IM effort, 100 easy, 100 fast (3.9k so far, like a Red Mist)
round 7: 100 easy, 700 IM effort, 100 easy, 100 fast (4.9k so far)
round 8: 100 easy, 800 IM effort, 100 easy, 100 fast (tot 6k)

All with 10s rests between reps (no additional rest between rounds). Fast is not all out but faster than threshold pace. " [ /quote ]

Hi Paul
I was going to do the above set this week instead of my usual 10 x400 which I did at 2m05 last week . Also last week I did an easy 1500 and a 500 cool down after a few mins rest so 6k in all.
Are you saying I would be better staying to the red mist set ? I also do a Faster Css set and technique set each week plus of course Emma's Squad .
Cheers John Woodward
Everything is won or lost inside your own head.

The best time to learn to swim was a long time ago the second best time is today

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Paul Newsome
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Re: for ow swimmers and Red Mist fans

Postby Paul Newsome » Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:22 pm

woody wrote:Are you saying I would be better staying to the red mist set?


In my opinion Woody, yes, or like I say - use the Guru to mix it up a bit.
2013 Manhattan Island Marathon Swim Champion. Don't forget to check out our valuable Know How section on the main site at http://www.swimsmooth.com/knowhow.html

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Re: for ow swimmers and Red Mist fans

Postby woody » Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:49 pm

Thanks Paul
Will do and keep taking a second off each week sometimes it takes a couple of weeks to come in on the tenth beep.
I haven't signed up to guru yet as I still go to Emma's squad 3 yrs since you recommended time flies.
Las 5 or 6 weeks took my weekly 10 x300 up to 10x 400 and stayed consistently doing it . It has paid benefits to my swim fitness.
Cheers woody
Everything is won or lost inside your own head.

The best time to learn to swim was a long time ago the second best time is today


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