low rpm with a 2BK: the 3 stage 2BK

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smootharnie
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low rpm with a 2BK: the 3 stage 2BK

Postby smootharnie » Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:22 pm

When you slow down the strokerate and go to a long stroke, but at a relatively slow speed you might feel that the legs are a bit lost.
Problem with slow movements in the water is that they hardly produce resistance.
At low speed non horizontal legs also dont get much pressure from uncoming water.
So if you slow the leg movement down to a 2BK and also do it a low strokerate, the legs start to move very slow relative to the water.
This can feel as loosing traction on the water from the legs.
When you are used to using the legs to counter balance disturbances at the front this can give a vague feeling at the back.
Some folks have found a solution for this by making the rotation relatively snappy compared to the rest of the general slow movement.
The snappy rotaion can be combined with a snappy kick, so you have speed difference between leg and water again to give some feedback between leg and water.

Swim genius Thorpe has found another solution; the 3 stage 2BK.
In fact he strips down the 6BK to the bare essentials, keeping the power kick with a smaller amplitude, statically balances on bodytone during the main part of the pull , and gives an endkick at the arm exit (and early stage of catch)
This way you get relative speed and leg traction on the main disturbing actions and keep the leg streamlined and rudderlike when the body is shoved forward between the transitions.
He keeps his roll smooth but gives small leg corrections just when its needed.

Stage 1
start of main kick
Image

Stage 2
Keep the rudder straight and horizontal while shoving the max streamlined body forward
Image

stage 2
Still keeping the leg straight, but with a tiny preparing action for stage 3
Image
Last edited by smootharnie on Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:42 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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smootharnie
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Re: low rpm with a 2BK: the 3 stage 2BK

Postby smootharnie » Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:25 pm

Stage3
Final downkick
Image

So, if you want to swim like a low rev smooth with a 2 BK, just copy Thorpes special 2BK version....
It may require some practice to get it right :)

from the 3min mark the action can be seen well from the side
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHszSCgMkpU
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s.sciame
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Re: low rpm with a 2BK: the 3 stage 2BK

Postby s.sciame » Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:51 am

Strange timing, as far as I understand:

Classic 6bk:
ONE - two - three - ONE - two - thre

Classic 2bk:
ONE - x - x - ONE - x - x

Thorpe's 2bk:
x - x - three - x - x - three

Or, more precisely:
one(*) - x - three - one(*) - x - three

(*) didn't use the capital font because it's not a full kick but actually a half kick.

My suspect is that this timing works only for him because his half one is still propulsive and the three too. For an average swimmer with relatively poor kick I think it's useless (could it be and easy way to kick with fins maybe?). Did you try it yourself? I tried it yesterday but I found the third kick quite useless for me. A light and even flutter kick works best for me.

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nightcrawler
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Re: low rpm with a 2BK: the 3 stage 2BK

Postby nightcrawler » Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:50 am

s.sciame wrote:Strange timing, as far as I understand:

Classic 6bk:
ONE - two - three - ONE - two - thre

Classic 2bk:
ONE - x - x - ONE - x - x

Thorpe's 2bk:
x - x - three - x - x - three

Or, more precisely:
one(*) - x - three - one(*) - x - three

(*) didn't use the capital font because it's not a full kick but actually a half kick.

My suspect is that this timing works only for him because his half one is still propulsive and the three too. For an average swimmer with relatively poor kick I think it's useless (could it be and easy way to kick with fins maybe?). Did you try it yourself? I tried it yesterday but I found the third kick quite useless for me. A light and even flutter kick works best for me.

Salvo


I think you are confusing something, according to my observation's (and also which I do while swimming) 2 bk means/is: "extending arm side's heel is up" while extending forward with the left arm left heel stays near to the surface of the water and vice a versa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt6_bqj_808

so the below contents you are discussing are the same with each other...
Classic 2bk:
ONE - x - x - ONE - x - x
Thorpe's 2bk:
x - x - three - x - x - three
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

s.sciame
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Location: Rome, Italy

Re: low rpm with a 2BK: the 3 stage 2BK

Postby s.sciame » Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:58 pm

have you watched Thorpe's video above? His 2bk version is clearly different from Shelley's one and from the classic 2bk in general. Guess this is what smootharnie wanted to point out by starting this thread.

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Re: low rpm with a 2BK: the 3 stage 2BK

Postby nightcrawler » Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:06 pm

of course i watched, i cant see any difference except his flexibility is more than the shelly's. timing is the same.
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

s.sciame
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Re: low rpm with a 2BK: the 3 stage 2BK

Postby s.sciame » Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:11 pm

ok, I actually used the term "timing" improperly. The timing is the same, I try to clarify the difference I see: let's call the 6 downkicks in a 6bk as follows:

ONE - two - three - FOUR - five - six

ONE and FOUR are the rotational kicks. Now, in her 2bk Shelley kicks ONE and FOUR and skips the other kicks (two, three, five, six). So Shelley does

ONE - pause - pause - FOUR - pause - pause

Thorpe instead, as far as I (and maybe smootharnie?) can see, does something different: he cuts ONE and FOUR amplitute in half, skips kicks two and five and kicks three and six. In short:

one - pause - three - four - pause - six

(where one and four are not full kicks but half kicks).

So timing is the same but the two kicking patterns are different to me.

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nightcrawler
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Re: low rpm with a 2BK: the 3 stage 2BK

Postby nightcrawler » Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:22 pm

Do you think that training like Michael Phelps or/and implementing the same technique with him makes us swimmers like him, never, because we have unique DNA's, that his technical pattern may probably not suit us to a large extent, because the base entities/arhtitectures are different. Trying different patterns and finding out the "mostly right" technique is essential, i believe this. For that reason, here in this example(Thorpeeedo vs Shelly) since different DNA chains produce different amplitudes stemming from different flexibilities, muscular patterns, pshyologies, range of motions, agilities, etc, different visualisations illusively will occur :D ;)
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

smootharnie
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Re: low rpm with a 2BK: the 3 stage 2BK

Postby smootharnie » Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:27 pm

I dont know about the second kick, but the rhytm of the one and 3th kick is the same as the normal 6bk, the differnce is that the first main kick has limited amplitude until the leg is horizontla instead of kicking lower beyond horizontal, and the 3th kck doesnt have an upkick but is started from that horizontal leg (with a very small setup upkick).
It looks completely natrural in his case, and in my eyes the 1st aqnd 3th kcik are the most important in a 6BK and serve for a big part to counterbalance the disturbances that happen at that timing in the stroke.
I guess it happens automatically in his case as he lowers his6bk effort to the minimum.
Not someting in to imitate on purpose perhaps, but an interesting kick. Never have seen it done so clearly.
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Re: low rpm with a 2BK: the 3 stage 2BK

Postby nightcrawler » Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:28 pm

Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion


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