video of me. please comment

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Campagnolo
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Location: Düsseldorf

video of me. please comment

Postby Campagnolo » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:31 pm

Since there´s so much Swimming wisdom around here, i´d like to share a Video of my stroke with you.
Maybe there´s something obvious, besides my awkward right hand entry.
I´m uncoached so far. So this is raw. :D

This is my introduction:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5&start=720#p26956
Since then I did one open water competition with a wet suit 3450m at 1:30min/100m pace

I havn´t improved over the last 8 month, even though I kept Swimming hard. So i´ve hit a wall




https://youtu.be/NOfkpmIDzew

smootharnie
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Re: video of me. please comment

Postby smootharnie » Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:17 pm

A lot of good things, balance,alignment, basic kick technique, extension, left arm pulling mechanics (from (older?)underwater footage at your channel), but my shoulders hurt looking at that right arm recovery.
In my view your 6Bk timing is a little off relative to the armstroke. It looks like its lagging the armstroke and rotation instead of helping to drive it.
Power your roll more with your kick and your recovery will be easier.
Maybe this drill can be helpfull
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdf5zASY6Yg

You also might fing this thread nteresting
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4215&hilit=power+in+stroke
GO to the new swimforum, called ....... THE SWIM FORUM......swim.palstani.com

Campagnolo
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Location: Düsseldorf

Re: video of me. please comment

Postby Campagnolo » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:11 pm

thanks a lot! These are some very good hints..

right arm recovery:
So there´s too little rotation, right? I have to rotate more aggressively like in the videos.
Actually when I did this in the late summer, it felt like loping. But I don´t really see it on film.

kicking:
I don´t pay any attention to kicking while swimming, so this is kind of an unconcious flutter.
And when I pay attention, I get out of sync.
yes, my kicking is very weak. I don´t get much propulsion from it.

Campagnolo
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Location: Düsseldorf

Re: video of me. please comment

Postby Campagnolo » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:14 pm

I see, what the drills are supposed to do.
I´ll try them tomorow.
A snorkel would help...

Sprinter
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Location: United Kingdom

Re: video of me. please comment

Postby Sprinter » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:37 pm

I don't see a big problem with the arm recoveries. One might go for greater symmetry -- or not.
I also would be careful about considering anything about the rhythm of the kicking, if there isn't a big problem -- and I don't believe there is one.

What is somewhat strange is the kink in the right hand at entry: straight entry would likely help.
You already mentioned that. Did you fix that meanwhile? Shouldn't be too hard to fix, or?

That "Serape One-Arm Drill" is considered by some coaches as rather dangerous: the role of the rotation is much debated, and many coaches (to the best of my knowledge) these days do not recommend such finishing arm action.
On the other hand, definitely the stroke looks very short, very early arm exit (for that stroke frequency). But I would just go for touching the hips.

I guess the main action here is under water.

Apparently you can maintain 1:30 per 100m for a good distance?
One school, especially SwimSmooth, goes for mostly swimming slowly (threshold speed etc.) to improve distance swimming.
The other school emphasises the role of speed (and I have a stronger believe in this direction): going faster, especially as an adult learner, means you have to have the ability to go even faster. That is, sprinting is important. Since you mentioned "speed is not your thing", that might be holding you back.

Campagnolo
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Location: Düsseldorf

Re: video of me. please comment

Postby Campagnolo » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:36 pm

At the time of the Video I was flirting with loping.
So maybe that´s where the shorter right stroke and the lesser rotation on one side comes from.

When I started Swimming in 2013 i did bilateral breathing and had a very low frequency. I tried to raise the spm since then.

the right hand:
my right wrist is somehow never straight. I try to concentrate while Swimming, but a straight wrist doesnt come natural.

Speed is definetly the thing to work on.
Where as endurance has always been there (I did 7150m in an 25m pool in 2hours last winter. 1:41 min/100m)
I guess my fastest 100m is somewhat like 1:17 waterstart sc.
And a wetsuit helps me a lot.

After starting out with css i did usrpt (nightcrawlers sets :D ).
That´s when i improved the most. But that´s not something i could hold up all year.
Last edited by Campagnolo on Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sprinter
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Location: United Kingdom

Re: video of me. please comment

Postby Sprinter » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:47 pm

So well, that's already something. I think it is just not so easy to further improve. A certain level is reached, and it seems quite natural to plateau for even several years.

What about a camp? I have been two times at
http://www.t3-training.de/trainingscamp ... s+2016+17/
and that is definitely helpful.

Regarding the wrist, perhaps
http://www.rev-paddles.de/
can help.

smootharnie
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Re: video of me. please comment

Postby smootharnie » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:19 pm

These positions didnt look very natural /shoulder healthy to me.
And you are putting on the brakes with that left arm'

Image


Image

I agree with Sprinter the stroke is finished too early what leads to this postions alsom but look at the angle of the hips. Completely flat.
Nice for a sprinter perhaps, but there is very little connection from kick to arms etc, what Sheila is talking about.

About the kick timing. Some kick timing are weird in my perception , but work for some swimmers.
Your timing reminds me of Brent Hayden, whos kick also looks weird in my eyes, and he also has relatively stable hips (but rolling, switching sides normally compared to your action') and rotating shoulders like a sprinter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8zPpJ5dHVk
What connection do you feel between kcik and spear ans/or pull? or is it just someting fluttering on the background?

Sometimes its hard to judge angles from video.
Here your rotation looks pretty normal, for most on the low side, for others just right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpgjplekK6Y
Left pull good, right side a little uncontrolled and weak.
Are you right or left side dominant?
GO to the new swimforum, called ....... THE SWIM FORUM......swim.palstani.com

Sprinter
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Re: video of me. please comment

Postby Sprinter » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:45 pm

smootharnie wrote:I agree with Sprinter the stroke is finished too early what leads to this postions alsom but look at the angle of the hips. Completely flat.
Nice for a sprinter perhaps, but there is very little connection from kick to arms etc, what Sheila is talking about.


For example that coach Holger Luening thinks that hip rotation is vastly overrated, and typically shows videos like that
http://holgerluening.de/2016/09/26/clip ... l-technik/
of Katie Ledecky as examples for little hip rotation.

Different opinions ...

I myself know about the dangers of over-rotation, and that it takes a long time to correct.

From the many clinics/camps etc. I attended, my experience is, and that has also been said often, that under-water footage tells so much more.

Sprinter
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Location: United Kingdom

Re: video of me. please comment

Postby Sprinter » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:54 pm

The recovery-movement of the right arm seems directly related to the kinking of the wrist, kind of preparing it.
It seems to me, that from the over-water footage the right hand/wrist is the major culprit, preventing a powerful pull with the right arm.

I have a likely smaller similar problem with the left wrist, and that also diminishes the pull.
The right arm of Campagnolo seems to go down quickly, very straight, so little pull. Also very wide. Similar to what I myself do with the left arm, and that
definitely does/did make me slower.

smootharnie
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Re: video of me. please comment

Postby smootharnie » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:09 am

Also about Ledecky opinions differ about how much hips driven her stroke is:

About her loping stroke.rotation, hip drive

If the best female swimmer in the world swims one way, it would make sense for others to try to copy her. But it isn’t that easy. The gallop stroke requires tons of core strength, the sort many male swimmers possess but few females do.

“We found that it’s a very hip-driven stroke, and I have really good rotation and rhythm with my hip rotation, and I get a lot of power out of my hips,” Ledecky said. “So that stroke kind of maximizes that.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/o ... story.html

Looking at her fall in the catch and hip driven kick following that, I tend to agree with this version.

It not so much about the absolute amount of rotation, more about how its linked to the rest of the action.
GO to the new swimforum, called ....... THE SWIM FORUM......swim.palstani.com

Campagnolo
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Location: Düsseldorf

Re: video of me. please comment

Postby Campagnolo » Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:54 am

Sprinter wrote:So well, that's already something. I think it is just not so easy to further improve. A certain level is reached, and it seems quite natural to plateau for even several years..


I guess, you could be right. Age is catching up. 49years.

Sprinter wrote:What about a camp? I have been two times at
http://www.t3-training.de/trainingscamp ... s+2016+17/
and that is definitely helpful..


I would love to. I do the Lüning workouts from http://www.swim.de a lot.
But then there´s Family, work, Money.. :?

Campagnolo
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Location: Düsseldorf

Re: video of me. please comment

Postby Campagnolo » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:11 am

smootharnie wrote:And you are putting on the brakes with that left arm'

Right. The thump is sticking out also.


smootharnie wrote:What connection do you feel between kcik and spear ans/or pull? or is it just someting fluttering on the background?

it´s just something fluttering back there. My conciousness starts with my hips.

smootharnie wrote:Left pull good, right side a little uncontrolled and weak.
Are you right or left side dominant?

Definetly left! I can tell doing one arm drills. I´m also a left hander. When I breathe to the right, i´m not Swimming straight.


smootharnie wrote:Sometimes its hard to judge angles from video.


I got some more Videos.
underwater, but 1 year old:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpgjplekK6Y

25m lane:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGTwsHVg7do
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rtdT0wdabM

and a very old one, 2014 from my beginnings. Low frequenzy, bilateral, totally awkward right arm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z_Pinf9Kmc

Campagnolo
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Location: Düsseldorf

Re: video of me. please comment

Postby Campagnolo » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:15 am

smootharnie wrote:You also might fing this thread nteresting
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4215&hilit=power+in+stroke


Yes. I´ve read it before. And i really bought into the "whole Body Swimming" thing.
That´s what i´m concentrating on most. Feeling my core muscles being stretched out and stable.

Adivio
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Re: video of me. please comment

Postby Adivio » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:03 pm

When I started Swimming in 2013


You have started 3 years ago and already can swim so fast? You must be one talented swimmer :o .
What's your "secret"? Or shall I say your weekly mileage?

Adrian
Also on http://swim.palstani.com/ forum.

smootharnie
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Re: video of me. please comment

Postby smootharnie » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:18 pm

Yeah, for an adult learner of your age and experience, you are swimming damn fast.
Curious about your engine size.
Do you have a sporting background?
For example, what speed you can maintain on a bike going as fast as possible for say half an hour non-stop?
GO to the new swimforum, called ....... THE SWIM FORUM......swim.palstani.com

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nightcrawler
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Re: video of me. please comment

Postby nightcrawler » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:24 pm

Excellent for a beginner, you are gifted(well developed strong body shape and flexibility).

I can offer you;
Everyone may say something about your technique and confuse you, dont listen them/us. I recommend you to find the best coach having national swimmer background in your region, he/she may help you better than us.
Once something goes into motion, it stays in motion, the process itself feeds the fire!
Ref: http://self-inspiration.com/video/uncomfortable-vs-exhaustion

Campagnolo
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Location: Düsseldorf

Re: video of me. please comment

Postby Campagnolo » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:39 pm

Thank you all! :D
But now the quick wins are gone.

smootharnie wrote:Do you have a sporting background?
For example, what speed you can maintain on a bike going as fast as possible for say half an hour non-stop?


I did licensed road bike races for 15 years. All there is. But my main Sport for 30 years was icehockey. Doing that helped in mostly anything else i did as an athlete.

Adivio wrote:
When I started Swimming in 2013


You have started 3 years ago and already can swim so fast? You must be one talented swimmer :o .
What's your "secret"? Or shall I say your weekly mileage?


I didn´t start from Zero. The Fitness Level was good. And I already knew the very Basic Freestyle technique just from School and growing up going to public pools in the summer.
I just never trained Swimming as a Sport.
I swim about 10km a week going 3-4x.

Campagnolo
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Location: Düsseldorf

Re: video of me. please comment

Postby Campagnolo » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:45 pm

nightcrawler wrote:Excellent for a beginner, you are gifted(well developed strong body shape and flexibility).

I can offer you;
Everyone may say something about your technique and confuse you, dont listen them/us. I recommend you to find the best coach having national swimmer background in your region, he/she may help you better than us.


Yes. I will go to a Coaching clinic in December. Since i stallmated (?), i want to find out, if i´ve missed something so far.

So far i´ve done my Swimming alone, mostly.

s.sciame
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Location: Rome, Italy

Re: video of me. please comment

Postby s.sciame » Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:50 pm

Congratulations Campagnolo (italian roots?), you already achieved a very good level in a short time and you did it self coached, which is even more valuable. From a technical standpoint you already got many good feedbacks to work on. By the way, what does your Swim Types test say? Maybe kicktastic? If I should compare your stroke with Jono's or other faster smooths with 6bk and high elbow recovery like you (but it applies to faster swingers too), the main difference I see is that they hit the water with more oomph, as if their arms were heavier than yours (but in fact it's not). This also produce the typical sound which is a trademark of fast swimming. I usually never see fast swimmers who hit the water silently and gently.
Anyway I don't see any major flaws which can hold you back in your technique. There are faster swimmers with worse technique around. What separates them from us?

I'm self coached like you and I'm only recently finding a way to get me out of a long plateau where I swam more and harder with diminishing to zero results. I believe the main challenge for a self coached swimmer (once decent technique is in place) is to find the right training prescription. We're lucky enough to have so much info available on internet but in the end we have to get the most from our very few available hours per week and this is quite difficult.

For me it was useful to think of training in terms of blocks of weeks (eg 8-10 weeks) alternating 3 to 4 harder weeks with 1 easy week to recover and adapt. In the last season, every time I felt I was improving I suddenly got back again (does it sound familiar?), perhaps because my training was flat and I never took easier weeks to adapt and get stronger. This may help:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CoCg-XS2Zs&t=3s

Moreover, since recovery is when you actually capitalize training, I started paying attention on resting as best as I can when I don't swim: talking about sleeping more and better and getting better nutrition.

Finally I published some videos here as you did and got many great technical advices. I'm working on my technical flaws and will eventually film myself over time to track the progress.

Hope that helps, keep up the good work!
Salvo
Other SS forum members and I are also on swim.palstani.com


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